Ep. 9 Chantelle Aimée Osman Interview Series: An Editor's Advice for Writers

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Chantelle's Website
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Article Chantelle Referenced: How Amina Akhtar Changed Her Life at 40
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3 BIG TAKEAWAYS

1. There's no 'right' or 'wrong' way to start a creative career
2. Why Chantelle decided to start Agora
3. How to “Level-Up” your craft

EPISODE INFO:
Last time on the interview series I talked to Emma Dhesi, writer and podcaster. She's been shared some awesome content for writers in our interview so definitely check that out if you haven't already.

Chantelle's business mindset really reminded me of my interview with Bianca Marais. So if you liked that interview, you’re really going to like this one.

Chantelle is the editor of Agora Books. Agora focuses on "socially and culturally unique crime fiction and horror from award-winning publisher Polis Books."

She was named to Publisher's Weekly Rising Star honoree list in 2020. She's been a freelance editor for over 10 years. She is an instructor at the Virginia G. Piper Center for Creative Writing, Authors at Large and LitReactor. She is the author of  The Quick and Dirty Guides To…, which is a non-fiction series on writing that I recommend checking out.

Chantelle hosts Words of Prey podcast through the Pipeline Artists Network.

Tweet me @DavidRGwyn

Transcript

David Gwyn: [00:00:00] Hey welcome everybody. So in this week's interview, I talked to Shantelle, Emmy Osman. She's an amazing editor writer, podcaster and more. I had so much fun talking to Shantelle. She had amazing information for aspiring writers and be on the lookout for another chat between us and the coming weeks, because there was just too much great content for one interview.

Last time on the interview series, I talked to Emma Desi writer and podcast. During that interview, she shared some awesome content for writers. So definitely check that out. If you haven't already Shantel's business mindset really reminded me of my interview with the outcome array. So if you liked that interview, you're really going to like this one.

Also, if you liked this interview, be sure to sign up for our new. So you don't miss any new content. The link is in the show notes. Shantelle is the editor of a gore books of Gora focuses on socially and culturally unique crime fiction and horror from award-winning publisher Polis books. She was named [00:01:00] a publisher's weekly rising star honoree in 2020.

She's been a freelance editor for over 10 years. She is an instructor at the Virginia G Piper center for creative writing authors at large and liquid. She's the author of the quick and dirty guides too, which is a nonfiction series on writing that I recommend checking. Chantelle hosts, words of prey podcasts through the pipeline artists network.

And in this interview, we're going to talk about editing as a career, how to educate yourself as a writer, MFA programs, are they worth it? The surprising downfall of getting a big publishing deal, promoting books as a small publisher and more so let's get straight to it. So let's, let's dive right in. So I, I first wanna say, I don't know.

I found, I think I found you on Twitter. I found your profile on Twitter and I looked at your website because I'm always looking for interesting people to interview. And as we kind of talked as we were getting started here, like, I'm always, I'm always interested in interviewing people who have like, kind of an interesting route into a creative career and, and people who are doing [00:02:00] interesting things here.

And I remember being alarmed at how much you do. I mean, my first question is like, do you see. 

Chantelle Aimée Osman: Sometimes you know, it's, it's funny, I'm glad you found me through Twitter because I actually got an email the other day and I'm not sure. That was from somebody that I, I apparently met at a conference, slight spoiler alert, because he starts the email with, I don't know how I know you, but I just found a note in my pocket with your name on it.

It's like, I don't know what you want, but this is a very random way to start. Apparently we had, he pitched me at a conference and made a note about sending me something at some point. But I was just like, yeah. So at least it was, and not a random note that you'd found with my name. Right. 

David Gwyn: I mean, that sounds like one of the books you would be publishing.

Chantelle Aimée Osman: Exactly. Yeah. I'm like, please. I hope you're also not outside my apartment.

Yeah, but no, I, and, and, and it's, it's also funny that you say about the, how I got into this business, because one of the more frequent questions I get is like how I, you know, I'd [00:03:00] like to be an editor. How did you get where you are? I'm like, I. Tell you like you, you can maybe try to recreate this, but it was such a strange set of coincidence, his circumstances, and you know, people that I met that that it was just, you know, it's a very hard path to recreate, but I, I'm very lucky that I ended up where I am and, and the one thing that all of my.

Jobs careers had in common is that at the end of the day, it comes down somehow to language and expression. And so it, everything always had that in common and that words, you know, persuade and can change minds. And, and so that's where my passion has always been. And being an editor just is, is the apex of that.

David Gwyn: Yeah, I really feel like, and I'm glad you kind of set it that way, because the way I think about as I was kind of looking into your background and, and reading your website, it really [00:04:00] feels like these are all different things that you're doing, but they all. Make up a part of a whole obviously, but like they it's worth, I think, parsing out and thinking about, and talking about some of these roles, because I feel like there's people listening right now who are, like, you're saying like, are asking themselves, how do I become an editor?

Right. You know, I know you do some freelance work. I know you work for a group. How do I get where you are? And I think you're right. Having read your Bible a very roundabout way to get there, like Hollywood and law school. But but I think it's, I think it's interesting because I feel like, and you know, you mentioned this before, before we started recording, which was.

The pandemic has really created an environment for people to think about what they really want to do. And I feel like there's a lot of people looking to switch and change and make moves. And so I, I've been really interested in, in talking to people like you who have this kind of entrepreneur mindset within a creative career and, and how important that is.

So like, can you talk a little bit about how you think about all [00:05:00] the different things that you do? 

Chantelle Aimée Osman: Oh, goodness. Well, I guess the key is. Too much about it. And, and I have to say that it was a, it was really nice the way that you phrase that about people who are really pursuing their passions during pandemic.

And I'll definitely shoot over a link to you because a friend of mine, I'm an actor. Who's a writer and her next book, kismet is coming out in summer of 2022, but she just did this amazing interview that talked about, you know, she, she really only starts. Her writing career, like after 40 and left, she worked in like high fashion, internal ism and left that very high pressure situation to really follow this.

And it was one of the most inspirational articles I've seen in a long time. So I'd love to share that if you have show notes or something, I think it might help people, you know, pursuing that journey as far as how I think about other things. I mean, most of my time is divided. Between editing, whether it's for a Gora, which is, you know, the [00:06:00] day job and when days, basically 24 7, but that's, you know, acquiring submissions, listening to pitches, editing, you know, figuring out marketing plans, getting the book in front of readers, coming up with the covers, that sort of thing.

But it's, it's wonderful and it's creative and it's finding things that I want to read. And I think that other people, you know, should see, would love to see That, that I couldn't wait to see on a shelf. And, you know, hopefully other people will feel the same way freelance clients, who I have. Brand new debut writers who, who just really need overall guidance to clients that I've worked with, you know, bestsellers for, you know, near a decade.

And that's a little bit different. But then of course, the rest of my time is a lot of teaching. I teach for Liu Brooklyn MFA program and the Virginia Piper center for creative writing. Authors at large, a couple of other ones. But I, I do a lot of workshops that way. And also, you know, in the before times, and now virtually a lot of conferences, lots of professionals, and some [00:07:00] of the ones that I had involve a degree or education that you have.

And fortunately, or unfortunately, and I think both are true. Being a writer, you don't necessarily have to have a degree in something being an agent, you definitely don't have to being an editor if you don't have to. And there are pluses and minuses to these sections. But as a result, it's the onus is on, particularly in this case, since we're talking to writers, hopefully it's on the writer to educate themselves.

And, you know, as a lawyer, I used to have to do continuing legal education every year to make sure that I was up on everything. And I kind of feel like there's an author responsibility. Too, if you have to keep a jar on your desk and throw your extra change in the air so that you can attend a conference or, you know, buy a writing book or just buy a book.

Because I think that's how writers learn. And I think self-education in this business and industry on the whole is very important. When it [00:08:00] gets down to, I always say, if you had to God forbid go in and have, you know, a surgery, let's say it's minor gallbladder or something. You would still look it up if you've never heard of the surgery and kind of get an idea of what's going on there.

And I think that a lot of writers, especially through inpatients, they've written me. And also because the industry itself and Hollywood is this to an nth degree, but there's a level of mystique and a golden gate that you can't, you know, you have to have a passcode to get through. And so people think that they can't learn the ins and outs of this business until they've been given that key that does the writers themselves a disservice, because I think that you need a basic background.

In the business in order to really succeed at it, or at least just to give yourself the best foot forward. And so a lot of my teaching is in that vein deep demystifying. And when I tell you that there really is not once on the day to day you know, we're dealing with paper shortages and shipping [00:09:00] delays.

And so there's, there's very little mystique to this. Once you get down to the day-to-day of the publishing. 

David Gwyn: So let me ask, because I was gonna bring this up later, but I feel like it's, it's the right time for it. I mean, when it, I know you teach for Liu in their MFA program. And actually I remember in your podcast, one of your episodes, you talk about this, like you go and you get a law degree or you get a PA degree and then you pass the test and then you are that thing, right?

Like you are a lawyer, you are a PA, you are a doctor, whatever it is. And for writers there really isn't. Clear cut. Like, oh, if I only I could pass the test, I could become a writer. And so you teach publishing and media workshop. Is that right with, with Lau? And why do you like to teach that course? Like what, what do you think students are meant to get out of something?

Chantelle Aimée Osman: I have kind of railed against MFA programs for a long time, because, you know, and in a sense, I have to say this applies across the board to certain graduate degrees because I felt the same [00:10:00] way before I say all MFA programs are bad. For example, what I went to law school, and then I graduated. I did not know how to file a motion.

Like I knew how to base, you know, a, a vague, constitutional law argument. But I didn't know, once I wrote that, where I would hand it in to file it to the court because the program. Taught you, they expected you to go into a big firm situation where you would have, you know, clerks and assistance and everything else who would do that sort of thing for you.

But really there was very little of that. Day-to-day I didn't know, you know, like, can you please send me directions to the court? And I kind of feel. In a way MFA programs kind of do the same thing because rightly so, they focus on the writing. They don't necessarily focus on writing as a career, [00:11:00] especially as a logical career.

There's kind of that I am going to write a literary novel, which will be grand and epic. And you don't think about anything past that step. And what I love about the program that I'm working with is that. They don't necessarily do that. They also embrace genre and they embrace how to write as a career. A lot of my friends, for example, you know, write wonderful epic things, but also do for example, a lot of tie in work in order to pay the bills day to day until they have that big breakout hit, or even just for fun, there are ways to pay the bills.

Being a writer, as opposed to just, you know, waiting for that one thing to hit, but also talking about practical things like career trajectory, how to find an agent, what you need in an agent, the pros and cons. There are, you know, it's wonderful. If you get a six-figure deal from a big publisher. But there are also pitfalls that come along with that, that I don't [00:12:00] think people think about.

Like, for example, you have to earn out that amount. So if people sometimes don't even know what earn out means or, you know, basically they have to sell as much as that before they make any money on top of it. And if they don't earn out on their first book for a big five, the second book might not get.

Any attention whatsoever, the publisher might not put any strength behind it. Whereas if with that first book, you might take a smaller dealer, go with a smaller publisher, that weight isn't necessarily attached to that first book. And I'm not saying that one way is better. I'm never saying to turn down a six-figure deal.

But there are things that you want to consider and you want to think about in Wayne, that career, and also just things about how publishing works, like how a book is acquired. Once a book is acquired by an, by a publishing house, what happens internally, you know, realize that they have to sell it to their marketing department, things in the contract that you have to deal with world rights, [00:13:00] audio rights, you know what you're giving up, what you're keeping.

Who and how many rounds you can expect of editing. You know, these sorts of things are really not like I said, mystical or magical, but there is something that really prepares you for that business. And I think you need a little bit, you don't need to know all of the ins and outs, but it's kind of one of those things where.

You don't know what you didn't know until something goes wrong. And I think that there's like a basic knowledge that you can have. And that's why I really liked this program that I'm working with because they give you that too. And I think that's a really important step to success. 

David Gwyn: Yeah, certainly. And I I've met with and, and talk to writers who have MFAs and they complain about the same thing that, that honestly I complained about with my English degree.

Got an English degree and it felt very much like they were just expecting me to figure out. And because there's no clear through line for English majors, writers kind of from this to like a nine to five job, it [00:14:00] felt very much like I fell into teaching just by accident as like that thing to do. Right?

Like you, you need your. Job, like you need something to pay the bills. And I love to hear that there's MFA programs that are recognizing that and making those changes or no, there are more 

Chantelle Aimée Osman: doing it too. I'm seeing it happen more across the board because, you know, I think it's wonderful. And the program that I work with authors at large too, which is weirdly how I ended up teaching for Liu because a very good friend of mine who also runs that program sushi.

We met when she was a. A writer in residence at the Virginia G Piper center. I immediately thought we would not get along. She was a very fancy, you know, very literary Dean of multiple MFA programs. And here I am coming from a genre background. This is not going to work. I could not have been happily more wrong.

And, and we ended up starting to teach together when we teach at the others at large programs, because she specializes in fiction. And I was doing genre and we quickly came to [00:15:00] realize that all of these things go hand in hand and these, these separations, like, for example, I always teach students, you know, if they're.

Is dialogue. If there, if that's where the problem lies and they're not comfortable, you know, read a screenwriting book, take a screen writing class. If your issue is with the description, you know, read some poetry, take a poetry class, you know, these things just hone your skills. These are all tools in your toolbox and, and telling a story in a, maybe a faster paced, more, more, what people would consider to be a genre way can actually, you know, work well in literally.

Standpoint too. So, you know, we kind of, we ended up combining our classes because there was just really, when you thought about it at the end of the day, so much overlap and being a good writer is being a good writer. 

David Gwyn: Yeah, I love that. I actually was going to ask about authors at large. So do you want to share a little bit about what you do with them and, and what that, that looks like?

Well, 

Chantelle Aimée Osman: sure. It's, it's a wonderful program and it's [00:16:00] led by sushi and Robin Henley. Who's actually the Dean over at the Liu MFA program as well, or, or coding. And it's a writer's workshop program that every year. Until the pandemic would meet in various locations. They'd have Iceland, Hong Kong Thailand, the last one was supposed to be in Laos and that was actually canceled, but they would have.

Various authors and instructors come and do fiction nonfiction, memoir poetry workshops that were very intensive as well as one-on-ones. That would be very immersive. And also since they were, you know, away, And these various exotic locations would also be culturally immersive as well. And it was just a really wonderful and will be again, wonderful retreat.

And, and they're doing some online classes too. It's really great because you have a small cohort. The classes are five to 10 [00:17:00] people for each. Each section. And so you can really get in depth in the work and have time to write and time to share. And each evening would be like a salon where people would share work and then discuss other things or discuss.

About writing. So it's really a wonderful program. 

David Gwyn: Oh, that sounds great. I feel like the longer I do these interviews and more, I talk to writers, it's, it's funny how many things are out there that for writers that I've never heard of that are great for education purposes and, and it seems like that's really.

W where your interests are, is educating writers so that they can, they can be really effective both in their writing, but also in their, their bank accounts. 

Chantelle Aimée Osman: That's true. You know, I, a friend of mine will lavender. Several really good books. I always called them the west end game books for adults and, and they're just wonderful, but he wants, did an event that I attended.

And then I made him write this as a list, but it was like the habits that you could [00:18:00] do to be a very successful writer. And he had gone the MFA route and once he finished his degree, He realized he didn't know anything to write a book. And so how he always says that he got his real education was he went to a bookstore and he read the things that were, you know, the best sellers, the things that didn't sell, like figured out what worked, what he liked, what didn't work.

And I think that the number one thing that you can do as, as a writer, Is read. And then right, there are so many wonderful programs, but I think that there are also secondary to just reading and writing. Like you don't have to have a fancy degree and you don't have to take any of my classes, but I feel like there are certain ways where, you know, once you get to a point and you've got, you know, maybe your draft done or whatever it is that you can.

Up your score, so to speak, you know, I think of it, you know, like playing a role-playing game and you just level up, [00:19:00] you know, and there are certain things that you can do to level up. Yeah. 

David Gwyn: I think that's a great message. And I think it is that balancing act of, you know, there's a lot of free content out there and, and some of it's good and some of it's not so good and, and no.

I think when to spend money on something that's worth it. And when to save your money on something, that's not as it's a tricky, it's a tricky thing to know about. And I feel like people listen to things like this, like podcasts and they, you know, they listen. And for me, you know, talking to you, I, I feel like you have the same mindset I do.

And I think that a lot of people do at this time, which is, yeah. I want to write a book. But I also want to figure out how to write as a career and like, how do I balance those? Those things is, is difficult and tricky to do. Yeah, 

Chantelle Aimée Osman: but I think, I think one of the keys is thinking of it as a career. So many people, I think make the mistake of thinking of it as one book, you know, this is, this is the book and that's great.

It could be an amazing book. And the fact that you finished the [00:20:00] book. Honestly success, whether or not anything else happens with it, like give yourself so many pats on the back. So many people don't do that, but it's really, if you want to be a writer or an author, your career is more than one book. And so you have to think and plan it out just like you would any other career.

Yeah, that you'd be undertaking.

David Gwyn: Okay. I want to pause here because I think this is such an interesting way of thinking about improving as a writer, that everything you learn is a way of gathering skills you can use later on this idea of gamifying can be a fun way to expand your writing expertise without all the stress. So what can you do this week to level up your writing?

Sometimes it takes the financial investment and sometimes it's just your time. But find a way this week to invest in yourself and your writing level up in the next part of this interview. We're going to talk about how Shantelle came up with the idea for a Gora books, what she's [00:21:00] looking for and more so let's get back to the interview.

No, that makes a lot of sense. So I want to shift gears a little bit, cause we've, we've kind of touched on this a little bit, but, but I want to actually talk about your, your work with the Gora and how you got started and what you do for. 

Chantelle Aimée Osman: Long story. I'll try to make, 

David Gwyn: I feel like that's everything with every time I asked you about, 

Chantelle Aimée Osman: I was so sorry, and I have so many soap boxes.

The apartment is just filled with great.

Gora is something that I've been passionate about for a long time. And I was very, very lucky to find somebody who believed in it as much as I did in our publisher, Jason pincher, who runs Polis books. So the core ethos for a Gora arose out of thoughtfulness and also out of boredom, I N N so was Jason painter, the publisher?

I was so tired. Of seeing the same books over and over and over. And I mean, no [00:22:00] offense to people who write these books. I need more offense to the marketing departments who believe that readers just want to read the same book over and over and over and look for. But, you know, it was kind of the like girl in the title books, you know, where it's like, did I really see what I saw?

Imagine what I saw or is my husband gaslighting me, you know, that that could apply to like, I don't know, 50,000 books out there. And I did not want to read another one of those. And I can think of all of these other. That are very popular and they're all well written and they're all interesting and they're all worth being published, but I was tired of it because especially in crime fiction and now, now we've expanded to publish horror as well.

But for basically the same reason, you know, crime fiction at its core kind of shines a light on. Issues of justice, of morals, of society of disconnects in [00:23:00] society and, and disparate voices in society and lawmakers and law breakers and how that, you know, appears and how you can frame that. I think that the fact that there were so few stories from.

Particularly underrepresented voices, but, but just in general that were not things that we'd seen before or weren't exploring the true human diaspora was kind of a disservice to the genre. And horror does very much the same thing. It's. With more of an allegory behind it. It's not quite so overt.

And so I just, I knew there were these stories out there and I just wanted to find them. And so fortunately did Jason and so Gora was born and, you know, we, like I said, we focus on crime fiction and whole. Particularly with social or culturally unique viewpoints, but particularly from underrepresented voices.

David Gwyn: Yeah, I think that's great. I talked with Amy Elizabeth [00:24:00] Bishop from DGB she's a literary agent and, and I kind of asked her the same question that, that I'm going to pose to you. But I want to give some context. No, I, I think. I don't know that there's an answer. And so maybe that takes a little bit of pressure off, but so I, I, like I mentioned before I teach and I was teaching in in Harlem when the hate U give came out.

And so I was teaching obviously students who do not look like me. And when the book came out, I remember our school, we bought a whole, we bought copies for all of our students. It was so interesting and I think it was great for them because I think the books that we had were just terrible and they didn't want to read them.

And they just were, I mean, that's just kind of the nature. I think, of some school libraries for this reason, right? Like diverse voices have been so underrepresented for so long. It's hard to keep a large stock of, of diverse voices. My question was, cause I feel like after that book came out and after the success of that book, I see a lot more of people asking for divorce, diverse voices.

[00:25:00] And I feel like I know where you lie on this, on the spectrum, but it made me think, you know, our readers demanding diverse voices. And so the market is delivering or is the market actually just in and of itself, recognizing that they need more diverse voices and therefore pushing out more content in the hopes of finding.

To consume diverse voices. Does that make any sense? Yeah, 

Chantelle Aimée Osman: it does make sense. And, and I think that my answer is that you've posed a chicken or the egg question and, and I think that it's, hopefully the answer is symbiotic. Like I do kind of think it's both. Just to, to briefly tell you the first year that w Gora hadn't launched yet, and we were doing, I think it was Bea at the Javits center.

I had my first list that was debuting. And we had acquired a few for his, that was fall of 2019. And then we acquired for spring and we had a [00:26:00] librarian luncheon and they ask us to pitch like one book from our spring. And we chose Matthew Henson and the ice temple of Harlem, which is kind of a Indiana Jones doc Savage adventure set in Harlem in, in, you know, the roaring twenties turn of the century era with Matthew Henson who is actually a real life.

Person. He was potentially the first man, but definitely the first black man to reach the Arctic circle. And so he had, he was this crazy adventure. And so Gary Phillips, who is an amazing author and a good friend of mine decided to reimagine him as this pulp hero. And it's absolutely perfect. So I pitched.

To these librarians and, and not to stereotype, but I have to say that the majority of these librarians were 70 plus female, you know, the, the very stereotypical, when you kind of [00:27:00] imagine a librarian and not all librarians look like this, but this particular group did. And so I, I honestly did not know what.

When I pitched this to them and they came back with all my God. I've been waiting for a book like this. When is it out? When can I read it? Can you send it to me? And it exactly. And it made me so happy and I realized, you know, if I needed it reinforced that moment reinforced. It, wasn't just me looking for these things and, and it, wasn't just the authors looking to publish, you know, there was this symbiosis of the books are out there and the readers are desperate for them.

And, and so, you know, it, it worked really well. And, and kind of like you were saying with, you know, schools and everything we even had, I feel so lucky for this. And my first release was John . That book eventually ended up being put on not only a college [00:28:00] curriculum, but also was a high school. One read. I don't know if you're familiar with that, but like states all the schools do.

Like they, they pick certain books to do a one read and all the schools read them and then the author does a zoom visit or whatever does Q and a with the students. And so the fact that that book with obvious racial issues. So quickly picked up for these various curricula. Again, showed me that, you know, especially even younger people really wanted books like this.

And of course, like you said, you know, you and I are not this demographic, right? We, we were lucky enough to grow up with books and authors who look like us and not everybody was. And so people are eager to see these things and they should be out there. And they're wonderful. 

David Gwyn: That's great. One thing I wanted to ask about actually, cause I've talked to a few authors can take this back to Gora a little bit.

I've had a few authors who have published with [00:29:00] smaller presses, which I know a gory usually does like four to six titles a year. Am I right? 

Chantelle Aimée Osman: No, actually you probably want. I'm slightly more than double that. Well originally our purview was going to be about six and it just ended up that there are so many bruises there that we really didn't stick to that very quickly kind of got blown out of the water.

We started in 2019 and, you know, honestly, I should recount, but I think we're close to 30, probably over that if I count the unreleased titles. So 

David Gwyn: the second part of my question, I can still ask, but that's, that's great. I'm glad to hear that there's an expansion over there. And then that you're, you're finding more titles and, and publishing, but one of the things that came up when I talked to authors was that that kind of like post publication support is often.

Not particularly strong. And in reading about a gore, it seems like there's a lot of support there for your [00:30:00] authors even after publication. And I just was hoping you'd share a little bit about that and why you think that's so important. 

Chantelle Aimée Osman: Well, thank you. First of all, I think that industry-wise, I very much think that it's a fallacy that, and it's a fallacy that actually, I think Hollywood created when publishing kind of adopted the Hollywood method.

I'm going to say the mid to late eighties and they kind of still haven't gotten away from that. And COVID, if it helped anything, it sort of helped this Hollywood is focused on the opening weekend and that's basically all that matters and publishing kind of adopted that where it's, you know, around release.

And that's all that matters. And I, I think that that. Under serves the authors because the best books and the best series have a long tail. You know, it's not, they might, especially if it's a debut author, you know, unless you have big five money where you can put it on [00:31:00] billboards and buses and ads everywhere, or be picked by Oprah's book club or Reese's book club.

It's really very hard to get a lot of traction for a book that nobody's ever read. Anything else by that all. So, this is where word of mouth comes in. This is where booksellers come in. This is where librarians come in. They are wonderful resources and, and really do set the market a lot more than people think they do.

If you don't have that kind of money, which not independent publisher, you know, we've been very fortunate to have books in, you know, the New York times and NPR and entertainment. That that's been, you know, a lot of work, but also a little bit of luck, but we don't have the money for these sort of advertisements or massive press tours.

So it does, it does again to say the word symbiotic, but the relationship between the publisher and the author for a smaller book has to be that way. A lot of it does depend on the author, working with us and, and working themselves to develop [00:32:00] a, especially now that it's really hard to get in-person or even virtual.

I've had a lot of my fall events actually cancel and move to spring because people are, I'm hearing from bookstores that were wonderful during the pandemic and, and, you know, pushing events and our authors. And they're saying, you know, people have zoom fatigue, they're not attending our events. We're not getting any RSVPs.

And there's still that hesitancy for the events that are happening in person. Right. So unfortunately, a lot of that does rely on. Social media and the author interacting in the only ways that they can with their readers and their fans. And I think that, I think that is invaluable because we, as a publisher.

Tout the book until the cows come home, but it's really not us that the reader wants to hear from it's the author. So providing guidance on that and working together and doing that. But yeah, I never, I never really stopped at least from my [00:33:00] titles promoting a book. They're they're always relevant. And right now like I said, one of the good things to come out of all of this is I want to say some flexibility on that deadline where before, you know, if the book was already out there, a bookstore or library or review is not going to be scheduled any more for it.

And now I'm seeing things where it's like, oh, okay, that's fine. It was six months ago. You know, we don't care. We'll promote it because it's relevant to whatever we're doing. And I think that that's a wonderful thing because I don't know how many books I have actually, as a reader myself, picked up like release week.

Right, right. It's generally something where, you know, somebody recommends it to you a few months down the road, or, you know, even on like the Amazon algorithms. And it's like, if you liked this, you might like that. And it's rarely in that timeframe. So I really do try to find the ways [00:34:00] to, to make sure that that tail is long, but it really is.

It is key. And I hate to put so much onus on the author. But I think that, that, especially in this time, that that level of interactivity with the reader really does make a 

David Gwyn: difference. Yeah. And I feel like now with, with everything, with, you know, obviously technology being what it is, I feel like it is more important and it's more I don't know how to say this, but it feels like.

There's no excuse for an author. It's not like, oh, well I didn't tour in your city. So we never got a chance to talk. It's more like when you're on Twitter, you're on Instagram. You're on like all these things and it really is a lot easier to interact and therefore it feels like an author. Less of an excuse.

Chantelle Aimée Osman: I have to say that on a couple of fronts. First of all, in, you know, bef before all of this went down and you would schedule tours, especially if you're dealing with a debut author, you don't authors don't realize because, you know, mentally you have that image. I'm an author. I'm going to go on tour. And if you don't go [00:35:00] on tour, that means.

Something's going wrong. Something, you know, the publisher isn't doing it right. Or, you know, you're not really an author. And, and I get that. That's always been part of that mystique that we were talking about, but realize the number of times that a debut author shows up at a bookstore event that's been scheduled.

And one to five, if that people show up and that, that might translate that one to five people might translate into two books. Sales. I realize that the money for that event, you know, getting them there and the hotel and whatever has either come out of the publishers or the authors pocket themselves, because most publishers don't pay for that sort of thing these days.

And so it really does not, you know, In-person events, although fun and great. Especially if you can schedule another author with them that doesn't necessarily translate into success or sales. And, and another thing that's kind of, it's been great for a [00:36:00] Gora these virtual events, because I have a lot of authors who are not in the.

I have authors in the UK. I have authors in India, in Spain, and most of the time those authors would not be booked for a panel or an event or a reading or anything. But now with virtual events, I get my author in India in front of book clubs and you know, so that's really bad. Positive where, and I, I'm hoping that this sort of hybrid will go forward.

And the same thing is true with like conferences where I take pitches. For example, I do writer's digest every year. I used to do ThrillerFest every year, but those things were wonderful virtually because I would talk to authors in Africa. And you know, that coming to New York for a conference, because those were both in-person York-based conferences before was cost and time prohibitive.

And so [00:37:00] opening those things up to a virtual audience is just so amazing. And I'm hoping that these conferences continue to prioritize that reach and access. 

David Gwyn: Yeah, that's great. Something I hadn't even thought about is those conferences going virtual. It's just, it really does open a lot of doors for people who, who wouldn't normally have access.

That's great. My last question is where can people go to find out more about you or find out information? 

Chantelle Aimée Osman: Okay, well for a Gora you can go to our parent company at Polis books, so www dot holis books, and it's at Polis books on Twitter. And for me the one general hub for everything you can find my coursework and everything through it.

Is my website, Shantelle homies. So C H a N T E L L. A I M e.com. Or on Twitter, I'm at suspense siren, S U S P E N S E S I R E. [00:38:00] Great. 

David Gwyn: And I'll, I'll link all that stuff too. So that if, if you're w when you're listening to this, you go to the show notes, it'll be there for you. So thank you again. I really, really appreciate it.

I had such a fun time talking with you and thank you again for all your, oh, 

Chantelle Aimée Osman: it's been an absolute pleasure. 

David Gwyn: All right. So that's it for this part of my interview with Montel on the Ozmen, as you can tell, she's a wealth of information. So if you haven't yet be sure to subscribe to the podcast. So you know what her next interview drops and go to the show notes, to connect with Shantelle and see the link that she suggested you check out last, but not least be sure to sign up for the writerly lifestyle newsletter.

So you don't miss any new posts. The link is down there in the show notes. I'll see you soon.