Agent Carleen Geisler Reads a Submission & Shares How Agents Evaluate Opening Pages

BONUS: Carleen shares where to put your inciting incident & more!
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EPISODE INFO:
Are you wondering what agents are looking for in submissions? Well this agent is going to talk all about what to include in a summary of your novel AND what you need in those opening pages to catch an agent’s eye.

Today’s guest is Carleen Geisler, an associate agent at ArtHouse Literary. She started her own author career as well as an agenting career at ArtHouse Literary. 

Carleen talks about balance and what to put in your opening pages. She also shares her thoughts on a little twist to your summary that can help grab an agent’s attention. You’re going to love this episode!

BIO:
Carleen is an associate agent actively building her list of adult fiction authors across contemporary genres. She's also open to nonfiction, and though her list mostly focuses on fiction, she would love to find some unique nonfiction projects to work on too.

Tweet me @DavidRGwyn

Transcript

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Carleen Geisler: [00:00:00] What I wanna see in a manuscript a lot of the time is some sort of balance.

It, it can be the balance between action and. Character building. It can be the, the balance between dialogue and tone, , but there has to be something, it can't just be flat. 

David Gwyn: Are you wondering what agents are looking for in submissions? 

Well today we're going to talk to an agent who shares what you should include in a summary of your novel

And what you need in those opening pages to catch an agent's eye. I'm David Gwyn, an agent and writer navigating the world of traditional publishing. During this season of the podcast, I'm asking agents, book, coaches, and authors about the best way to write a novel. If you want the expert secrets, this is where you're going to find them. Last week on the podcast, I talked to James 

James Byrne: I only write stories that are gonna entertain me. And if I'm not being entertained, if I get 30 pages into a book, I'm thinking, you know what?

I gotta go home and write chapter seven and clean out the cat box and, do the laundry. I'm in trouble. And I realize because you become a chore, stop that book. Throw it away. [00:01:00] Start a new one, because that one just wasn't, just wasn't happening. 

David Gwyn: We talked about how to write novels fast, how to develop unique characters and why finding a good editor is so important. That episode is linked in the description. If you want to check out more with James. Today's guest is Carleen Geisler. She's an associate agent at ArtHouse Literary. She started her own author career as well as her work at art house. And as someone who works on both sides of the desk has a unique perspective on the publishing industry. 

Carleen talks about balance and what to put in your opening pages. She also shares her thoughts on a little twist to your summary that can help grab an agent's attention. You're going to love this episode, so let's get straight to it.

Carleen, thanks so much for being a part of this interview series. I'm really excited to chat with you. 

Carleen Geisler: I'm excited to be here. This is fun. Yeah. 

David Gwyn: So we've known each other for a little while and, and you're like an absolute badass when it comes to storytelling.

So I am so excited to have you share some insights on this submission today. But first, before we get to this submission, I do wanna talk a little bit about your background. So you're a relatively new literary agent. What, what made you want to go that route?[00:02:00]

Carleen Geisler: If a year ago you had told me I would be agenting now, I would've been like, no, not a chance.

I was very worried about the salesy aspect of it, truthfully. And the thing that I found is that like, it's not. Salesy in like a cold calling kind of salesy way. Like everybody you're talking to wants the same outcome. Like everybody's on the same team. Whether or not they're gonna buy the book, you're trying to sell them, but they still are excited.

So that was kind of the one thing that I was like, no, I would never be an agent. But then when I was an author, like querying and stuff myself, I found I was always beta reading. I was always doing query packages for people for free, and I loved it. And finally I was just like, you know what? Like I could make money doing this type of stuff, so why not?

So then I did an internship and I loved it and yeah, I just found like I found my thing. That's how it feels. 

David Gwyn: Yeah. That's really cool. And, and I, I wanna talk a little bit about that kind of crossover between [00:03:00] agent and and writer which we'll get to. But have you, have you always been interested in the publishing world?

Have you always wanted to be kind of in the book industry? 

Carleen Geisler: No. I, I, so I was like, I was the kid that was always reading, like we all probably were. But I never even considered publishing as an industry like, Potential. I have had multiple careers in very different things cuz I never knew what I wanted to do.

So like I worked in veterinary medicine for five or six years. I worked in logistics like for quite a few years. And then more recently and kind of more relevant, like I've had an entire career in marketing. And none of those things. They were all okay. I enjoyed them, but like I never loved them.

The difference now is like, you know how people say, like, find the thing that doesn't feel like work? Mm. That's, that's agenting for me. Like, it doesn't feel like work. Even like things with my jobs that I've had, like I've, I've had had a call with like [00:04:00] a client or something, like, I dread that with agenting, like calls with editors.

I'm like, bring it on. This is exciting. Like, it's such a different feeling. 

David Gwyn: Yeah. That's super cool. Yeah, it sounds like like you said, you kind of found, found a place where you feel comfortable. That's, that's really good. Yeah. So like I said, I wanted to, I wanna swing back to this. So aside from being a literary agent, you're, you're also a writer with a literary agent.

Yes. So has becoming an changed the way you see the industry and in what ways? 

Carleen Geisler: Yes. And interestingly currently, All, or most of the agents at Art House are also agented authors, so we kind of like all have that experience, which is interesting. Hmm. The biggest thing for me, and it's not even like, this is not even gonna be a good explanation of, of the shift, but when you're an author, you're like spoonfed all these, like everything is subjective and like all these like sentences that we hear over and over again in our rejections and whatever.

[00:05:00] And we hear them and we understand them, and they don't really mean a lot until you're the person making the decisions. And, and then once you're in it and you're like, oh, this responsibility is on me. And then you really understand like how hard it actually is to be rejecting people and like making those decisions and being the person who's like evaluating.

Which things am I gonna take on and why? And are my personal choices, you know, gonna better the industry or am I doing a bad job? Like it's, it really all of a sudden became clear, like how much harder it is than people think, and that you can't really know it until you're doing it.

David Gwyn: Do you think there's a benefit to having an agent who's also a writer? 

Carleen Geisler: I think so, but I'm also probably biased in that opinion. So the one thing that, like, I think, and it's something that I try to like talk through when I'm, when I'm offering [00:06:00] to an author, is Everything they're going through and everything they will go through.

I've been there, so like I can commiserate with them, but I can also be that balance of like, if you just wanna vent with me, I'm happy to vent with you, but also I can also give you a bit of a realistic view on what's actually happening, if that's gonna be helpful to you. And I can kind of create that balance.

And because I have the experience as the author, I'm never gonna be an agent who's like, well, that's just the way it's, yeah. Like, you know, so I feel like on a psychological support level, there is a benefit for sure. And then probably the other benefit is and this is probably totally different depending on every single person, but in the editing process, I think because I have the writer mindset sometimes .

I'm editing and all of a sudden this idea comes to me and I'm like, Hey, have you thought about this? Mm-hmm. And like I would never say like, Hey, change it and do that, but like it might spark something for them. So I will always bring up an idea I have just in case it sparks [00:07:00] something for them. 

David Gwyn: Oh, that's really cool that, that kinda like that writer mind is going on at the same time, always as writer mind.

Yeah. That's super cool. Yeah. So now, I mean, this might be an ongoing process and, and, and I'm curious if, if you've found a balance, but how are you finding organizing your time and energy between your own writing and client work? 

Carleen Geisler: I'm not. Truthfully, since becoming an agent, like I haven't been writing The, the good side of it is that before I actually started as an agent, like I was on sub, so like kind of in that waiting period, and then I had also kind of outlined the next thing.

So like I do have ideas ready to go but all of my brain power for the last few months has been into like signing people because I really just wanna get that ball rolling. But I will say now we're at like, Month two. And like I've, I've been starting to feel the itch a little bit finally.

Oh yeah. So I think, yeah, I mean, I think my clients are always gonna come first above my [00:08:00] own writing, but I think once I get into a better, like, cadence of like having more signed people, I'll be able to find a bit of time for my stuff, 

David Gwyn: hopefully. So let, let's talk a little bit about Art House the agency where, where you're an agent, what do you like so much about Art House and working with them?

Carleen Geisler: So for now, we're a really small agency, which I think was really good for me learning. We're also very close. Like we all talk all the time. Every single agent, like if I have a question or if any of our interns have questions, everybody's always willing to help.

And then probably the, the best thing I would say about Art House is that , genuinely the agency as a whole wants to be progressing the industry. So like when things, when discourse comes up on Twitter or like, there's like crazy things happening in the industry. Like we get together and we discuss them as a group and we discuss how we want to address it and how we want to move forward and help, you know, whatever the discourse is [00:09:00] or.

we need to maybe step back, go to something. And just like we, we work on that as a group all the time and we frequently have discussions about relevant, social issues in the industry, which I think is super cool. 

David Gwyn: Yeah. That socially minded aspect to agenting, I think. And I think the book industry in general in a lot of ways For a lot of reasons and, and for a long time have been important for social change.

And I think that mm-hmm. Like you were mentioning, like being, as an agency, being kind of cohesive around what, what you wanna do can be really useful, especially for, imagine for underrepresented writers who, who wanna work with an agency or Right. For an agency that has that in mind I imagine is really important.

Carleen Geisler: Yeah. And that's definitely a big focus of our agency kind of as a whole, which is cool. 

David Gwyn: Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about your list specifically. What genres are you looking for? 

Carleen Geisler: Everything that is adult and contemporary. I don't [00:10:00] do fantasy, historical sci-fi and I don't do any children's.

But aside from that, I'm good with whatever. Like I'm more, I'm more interested in like a story that sucks me in than caring about like what genre it is necessarily. What I have found is that I am more drawn to things that are more out market or literary than I thought I would be.

Which has been, yeah, it's been interesting. But especially in like suspense genres, I found, I find like, And maybe it's partly because I am a thriller author that like I'm struggling a little bit with the more commercial thriller stories that I, that I've seen. But I'm like desperate for suspense that is like completely off the rails.

David Gwyn: Is that something that you kind of have come up with as you're getting submissions? Did you go in knowing this and and was that a conversation with the agency at all? 

Carleen Geisler: It's definitely not how I thought it would go.[00:11:00] I thought I'd be signing thriller authors left and right, because that's what I typically always read as a reader.

Yeah. And it just was a process of like reading queries and reading synopsis and, and reading pages that I just. It was the things that are more like literary that I was like, oh yeah, I really wanna read this. The agency itself, they kind of, they leave it up to us. I mean, of course if, if you ever wanna bounce something off of our founder or any of the other agents, like they're always happy to help.

But it's, it's, yeah, it's really a personal decision. 

David Gwyn: So let's talk first pages. Before we get to Yeah. These first pages. I'm kind of curious generally, so when you get a submission are, are you, what's your order here? Are you looking query letter pages, pages, query letter? Like what? What's your 

Carleen Geisler: process?

Yeah, it depends a little bit on the submission itself. Okay. And I actually made notes about this specific submission too, about how I would do it with this one because Cool. They're not all the same. Yeah. But typically, like, obviously I always read the query. If [00:12:00] the query, sometimes the query is something that I'm like, yep, I'm gonna request this right now.

 I'll always glance the pages just to make sure they're like, you know, the writing is, is quality. Like, it's clearly been. Polish to a point. But there's sometimes that I'm definitely like, yep, I wanna read this. Like right now there's some where the query brings up questions for me, and then I will have to read the synopsis.

Because sometimes it's things where I'm like, oh, like if, if it goes this way, like I'm, I'm invested. But if it goes a different way, I'm not sure. So probably about 50% of the time I go to the synopsis. Second. And then I do always read the pages. I don't always read, cuz we, we request three chapters.

I don't always read all three of them before requesting. I'll read all three of them before, before saying no, but I won't always read all three of them. If I, if I, if I'm already like in, there's no point in me wasting that time when I'm just gonna read them again. Right. So I'll read the first like pages and then, and then just request the [00:13:00] full at that point.

Oh, 

David Gwyn: that's so interesting. And so in those first couple pages, when you get there what is something that will make you, I mean, what are you looking for in those first pages? What is something that you're like, Hey, I'm gonna request this without having to go into chapter two. Like, what are you looking for?

Carleen Geisler: I'm not looking for anything specific. I'm mostly like feeling vibes. Really, I wanna know that the tone matches what I'm expecting from. The query and from the genre. You know, if I, if I'm, if they've pitched it as a thriller and I go in and it reads like a rocom, I'm gonna be like, what is happening here?

Something's off. Unless it's pitched as like a comedic thriller or something, then Okay. And that the other thing I'm looking for in the first pages is that something is happening, something interesting. It doesn't have to be like a big hook. It doesn't have to be you know, the catalyst for the whole story, but something has to be going on that I'm like, oh, Hmm.

Interesting. Like I would, you know, if it was a TV show, I'd keep watching. 

David Gwyn: [00:14:00] okay. Let's pause there for a second. Carleen talked a lot about what she's looking for in a submission. So now we're going to take a listen to the summary and opening from a Thriller 101 submission. And Carlene's going to tell us why she's requesting the full for this manuscript. 

But before we do that, I wasn't able to include all the amazing insights Carleen and shared in this episode. So if you want to hear about when Carleen suggests you should have your inciting incident, how long you can wait, to hook an agent and some more fun tidbits, 

you can listen to that bonus conversation for free by clicking the link in the description. And if you want an agent to consider your work for the podcast, be sure to sign up in the description and I'll notify you when we reopened for submissions. 

Oh, and here's a little advice for querying authors. If your story sounds like something Carleen would be interested in, give yourself a leg up and show that you did your homework by querying her and saying that you heard her on the podcast. That way, if you tell her you think she'd enjoy your story, it might give you a leg up. Anything you can do to make your query stand out. Okay. So here's the [00:15:00] submission Carleen chose to request the full manuscript for. 

Nancy: Stone’s Throw State Park Ranger, Maudy Lorso, spends her days playing cards and sipping drinks with her Millennial gal pals, hiking steep sand dunes with her scruffy dog, Martin Short, and ignoring the heartache of a devastatingly drawn-out breakup. Having built a quiet life in the Lake Michigan coastal village of Stone’s Throw, her emotional safety net is turned inside out when her boss notifies her of looming budget cuts threatening her job. That, and the body of a missing tourist is discovered deep in the park. To restore peace and save her career, Maudy agrees to work as a consultant for the case with the County Sheriff’s Department. Drawing parallels between the motivations of the true killer and herself, Maudy saves the day and resurrects her own appetite for life, realizing her quiet, reliable lifestyle has held her back from personal growth.

Here is the opening chapter...

The usual pastel color palette of downtown, weathered lovingly by sun and the sand, is drained to a stark black and white this morning. Covering every flat surface are flyers with MISSING PERSON plastered across the top. Laughter and pleasantries have curdled into [00:16:00] quiet whispers, making my short walk to breakfast an oddly eerie one. It’s like someone gift wrapped the town in doom and gloom. 

Emily: “Did you hear about the guy who went missing this morning?” 

Nancy: nellie whispers to me over her mug, as I sit down next to her and her two young girls. She’s so sweet, trying to not alarm the kiddos who are deep in play, pretending to be dragon-slaying princesses after sneaking a peak at a Game of Thrones re-run . The news is all over our mere 200-person town, the kids will find out eventually. Frankly I’m surprised they haven’t already, I wonder what she told them all the flyers are for. 

“Kelly called me,” I reply quietly, pouring myself a cup of coffee from the carafe in the middle of the table, sitting on top of an ornate doily. “She asked if I would search the park tomorrow if he still hasn’t been found. She doesn’t seem too concerned; he probably just went home and didn’t tell anybody.” As the Head Ranger for Stone’s Throw State Park, I’ve struck up a friendship with Kelly Sherwood, the officer stationed in our village. We first bonded over a nostalgic love of nineties alt rock and Buffy the Vampire Slayer. 

Normally, I love breakfast at The Nest B&B. The kitschy décor, the bold fabric choices, all of it.[00:17:00] But today, hanging on the wall behind my head, the incessant ticking of the cuckoo clock kills me, dragging my focus away from my friend. It’s been there forever and has never bothered me before. But today, The Tell-Tale Heart doesn’t seem so far-fetched. 

Nellie keeps talking, but all I can hear is the tick, tick, tick, of the clock as I mull over a game plan for combing through a two-by-twenty-mile dense forest looking for one guy. The ‘needle in a haystack’ metaphor feels comically understated. More like ‘needle in a haystack in the Bermuda Triangle.’

Emily: “Maudy? Maudy!” 

Nancy: She taps her spoon against the table, snapping me back to reality. 

“Wha--? Oh, sorry Nellie.” 

Carla (2): “You okay, Aunt Dee?” 

Nancy: Lydia asks, taking a break from poking her little sister with a stick she brought with her this morning. She’s wearing a plastic horned hat, a t-shirt with a dragon scale print, and a “magic sword” (stick) that’s now leaning against the table’s fancy lace linens. A girl after my own heart.

David Gwyn: Carleen, you picked this submission that, that you really liked from, from Thriller 101, and I, I wanna start by talking [00:18:00] about the genre comps, character summary kind of thing.

First. It's funny, we were talking before we started recording and we both noticed the same thing in the summary which I want you to talk a little bit about, which is that last line. But can you first just say what it was that you liked about the summary? What did the author do that you thought was really useful for you as someone reading it and, and made you really interested in the story?

Carleen Geisler: Yeah, so there's a, there's a few things. One is that I am a sucker for any. Any book that is set in the wilderness, like any genre, any book, set it in the middle of the woods I'm in. So that, that was a big piece for me is I was just like, cool state park I'm in already. And then I think the author also did a good job with both the page and the pitch itself, like balancing.

The fact that there's some dark stuff happening, you know, there is a missing tourist and we find out in the pitch like that there's the body of a missing tourist. But does a really good job [00:19:00] of balancing like a little bit of humor and lightheartedness in it. I laughed really hard at the line where they introduced the, the dog whose name is Martin Short, like that, that hooked me because I was like, this, this has balance of humor and.

Darkness and you know, a body which is typical of a mystery genre, you don't usually find a mystery without a body. So I just thought that was really good, especially because unlike a, like a thriller or a horror, which are tend to be very like, tense or scary. In my experience reading mystery, it's usually pretty lighthearted.

Like I know I, I grew up reading a, a mystery series that was narrated by like an 11 year old girl or something. And so it was like super, just like fun and lighthearted, but yes, there is always a dead body. So I think the author kind of just nailed the genre expectations as far as we could tell in a pitch.

David Gwyn: Yeah, I noticed the same thing that, that Martin short naming of the dog, like immediately for [00:20:00] me, like, I was like, oh, okay, like tonally. Mm-hmm. I understand what's happening. It's funny, it reminded me, I, I, I watch only murders in the building. Yeah, same.

I haven't finished, I haven't finished the most recent season, so don't spoil it. But it's that tone, right? Where like there is a dead body. There is murder, but , The tone might be struck differently than it would in a, like a more traditional thriller. And so I wanna ask you about that, that last line?

Yes. And more generally, just thinking about people who are pitching, people who are querying this, this last line, it's something that I don't think is always taught to be put into a query letter, but it was. Drawing parallels between the motivations of the true killer and herself, ma saves the day and resurrects her own appetite for life.

Realizing her quiet, reliable lifestyle has held her back from personal growth. Can you talk a little bit about that last line? What struck you about it? Do you like that? 

Carleen Geisler: Yeah. So I mean, I could be wrong, but as far as I know, it's not typical of the mystery genre to have like a.

A big moral at the end of the story. [00:21:00] But I really liked that. I thought that that brought a little more heart into the story. I would guess that most mysteries don't have this because usually they're pitched to be like a series and sometimes they go on for like 30 books. So having the character have, you know, a big realization at the end of Book one doesn't really serve writing 30 books.

But for me, for someone who kind of prefers standalones a lot of the time I really love that we see some character growth by the end and that we're promised that. 

David Gwyn: Yeah. It's so interesting to read that and think about how the plot is gonna impact the character. I think it really refocused the plot back on character in a really interesting way.

Mm-hmm. Something that I think I, I think to your point, Sometimes I think in this genre it's overlooked, like thriller, you know, mystery. Yes. Even in, in like the horror genre side of it, like those things are just overlooked. 

When you went into this, you know, give, getting a list of submissions here, did you know [00:22:00] you're looking for a cozy mystery? 

Carleen Geisler: Not in the slightest. I, I mean, I went into it with an open mind because I had no clue what I was gonna see when I, when I opened the link. But truthfully, like I don't have any mystery authors currently.

So, and I actually don't even have any mystery submissions at this point. Like, I mean, I've had some come in, but I have nothing currently sitting in my inbox that I'm like waiting to work on or waiting to read. So, That was probably a bonus for this author, for, for me looking at it because I was like, oh, this is something I don't currently have already waiting for me to read.

And, and yeah. And then it's also kind of a whole new genre for me where I'm like, okay, we could start thinking about this new genre and not have anybody else in line before them. 

David Gwyn: When you're thinking about mystery and cozy mystery especially, are you thinking about series potential?

Like would you read this manuscript thinking about, Hey, is there a sequel, or is this something that can keep going? 

Carleen Geisler: This [00:23:00] genre more than others. Yes. But overall, no. It is always helpful to have it as a possibility, especially when you're going on sub.

It's very possible that an editor might say, Hey, you know, I really like this. What's next? What else is currently in the works or, or even written. And that makes selling, you know, a two book deal or a three book deal a lot easier potentially. For me on a personal level, I much prefer standalones.

So I'm generally looking for something that can be a standalone overlooking for something that could be a series. But it isn't a bad thing to have in your. 

David Gwyn: What is the biggest strength of these opening pages that you saw?

Carleen Geisler: So similar to the pitch, I think the author continues to do a really good job here of balance between there being a serious subject matter and some kind of lighthearted moments. Not as like humorous as, as there was in the pitch, but we get kind of this glimpse [00:24:00] of the girls with their, their dragon slaying princesses and they're wearing the little costumes and stuff.

And we don't really see much more than that, but we know that it's there and it kind of helps to set that tone that. This is kind of like a, a glimpse of life in this, I don't know if I would say normal, small town, but like typical of a cozy mystery small town. Yeah. And we get this, you know, at this point the tourist is missing, not dead.

So we kind of immediately get these stakes there is this big concern that it concerns the entire town that our main character is going to have to deal with. But we aren't thrust immediately into it. We, we are kind of given a moment to breathe, to kind of figure out the character a little tiny bit.

And I really like that, kind of slower intro. 

David Gwyn: And do you see, I mean that, that kind of slice of life intro do you see that as. Something that is typical of, I mean, are you seeing that in all your submissions that you're getting from people or [00:25:00] a lot, or are some people kind of diving right into action?

 Where does this fall in terms of getting into the inciting incident right away? 

Carleen Geisler: It, it's a complete mixed bag. Um, Sometimes I get things that are just like so intense from the beginning that I'm like, whoa, we need to like slow down here. And I've definitely seen submissions where it's. So slow that I'm like, something more needs to happen.

So having a balance is nice. It's not necessary to start with, action right away. It's also not necessary to start with like a really slow intro. It just kind of depends on the book. But it is nice to have that variety. 

David Gwyn: In that same vein, what are you hoping to see in these next few pages from the author, you know, those next like five to seven pages or so?

What would you like to see that makes you even more excited for, for this story? 

Carleen Geisler: Yeah. We need, we need some action pretty soon, I would hope for two reasons. One being that this first page is very like [00:26:00] dialogue forward. Not slow, but there's just not really any action. It's two people having a conversation.

The second reason being that we have been promised a search in the woods, and now that I've finished reading this page, I wanna get to that search in the woods. Like right now. Show me, show me the trees. Show me the body. 

David Gwyn: Yeah. I lo I, I think that's, that was the one thing for me. I, I really thought this writer nailed.

The way you wanna start with voice. Like, I can hear this character. And one, one thing that stood out to me is I, I love this line. First time authors, A lot of times they, or even even first drafts, I, I'm guilty of this. Like I get stuck in like telling the reader about a character. And one of the lines that stuck out that made this, I think writing elevated a little bit was this line We first bonded over a nostalgic love of nineties alt rock and Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

Mm-hmm. And I feel like that line just tells me so much about this character, but also about this story. Yeah. And, and one of the things I thought was interesting , and I'm sure you picked up on this, were, [00:27:00] was very strong female character vibes. The. I'm imagining you picked up on that.

Is that something that you're thinking about or is that something that you're looking for in, in, in the genre, in submissions? 

Carleen Geisler: Yeah, I would say most of my authors write female characters. That's just, I tend to always read female main characters. Not always, but that is something that I, I do tend to gravitate towards.

Also circling back to that line. Yeah. The other thing that this made me think of, and I don't amount, or maybe, but I don't think the author intended this, but the combination of like small town mystery and then also like the kind of like throwing back to like the nineties almost made me start to think like stranger things kind of vibes.

I don't think this is going that way, but it did kind of like light a little fire in me of being like, Ooh. Interesting. 

David Gwyn: Well, I think even for setting purposes, that that probably helped to just kind of [00:28:00] orient you as a reader. Yeah, definitely. And I thought the Dragon s slang princesses and the Buffy the Vampire Slay, I was like, we, we are getting strong female character vibes.

Like this is a book that I hope someday to, to like hand to my daughters so that they can read. Yeah.

So Voicey which I thought was great. 

Carleen Geisler: I, I actually will just point out one line that I really liked which is, and I think it is also showcases , the tone quite well is So after the officer asks if she can look for the, the missing tourist.

The line is the needle in a haystack metaphor feels comically understated. I really like that because it not only it gives you a good picture of like what she's up against, but it is also kind of a lighthearted line. It kind of gives you a little hint at like, her maybe kind of sarcastic nature and I don't know, I think that just gives us a really good feel for the character.

David Gwyn: Yeah. I've, I love that line. I'm, I'm so glad you pointed it out, because I think it does, it does a lot of heavy lifting, like it does. [00:29:00] Stakes and how difficult this is gonna be. But it also adds to her character and, and the way she thinks and kind of the way she digests information. I, I think that's a, a really great line to point out because of it, because it's doing all those things.

And I think there were a lot of lines in this, these first two pages that like told us about the situation and character and voice. 

Carleen Geisler: Yeah, I think 

David Gwyn: so too, for people who are listening try to find lines, find ways to combine those things. So, Things are doing heavy lifting for you. I think that's great.

So how does this particular story now that you've read, you know, we talked about the summary, we talked about the opening pages. How does this, based on your reading of it, how, how does it fit with what you're looking for in a manuscript? 

Carleen Geisler: Like I said, I think the biggest thing for me is balance.

And balance can be. Gotten by many, many different ways. Like this has great balance in dialogue and immersing us in like the setting, it doesn't yet really have like the action balance, but I imagine that that is [00:30:00] coming. What I wanna see in a manuscript a lot of the time is some sort of balance.

It, it can be the balance between action and. Character building. It can be the, the balance between dialogue and tone, , but there has to be something, it can't just be flat. And so like that fits into that really well. It also, you know, I, I like dark stories. I like this type of genre and so it just seems like kind of like a natural fit for like the next kind of thing.

I will be looking toward 

David Gwyn: signing. So here's my kind of like, wrap up question for you. I, I have two quick ones. So the first thing is this. If there's a writer out there with, with an idea, let's assume it's a solid idea. They've got it mapped out. All, all those are kind of good things.

They've done the work. The reality of querying is that you really gotta nab an agent's attention in those first couple pages. So what do you suggest a writer should think about or focus on in those opening pages to ensure that [00:31:00] they're grabbing an agent's attention? 

Carleen Geisler: Yeah, I'm gonna a, I'm gonna give you two answers.

Great. One of which isn't directly answering your question, but it's something that I think will help. So for as far as like the query first pages, make sure something's happening and make sure it's something that is in tone with your story and it's kind of setting up what kind of stories gonna have.

It doesn't have to set up the story, but it has to set up what kind of story we are about to see. And with the query, I would really recommend to authors to try and look at like what is unique about their story you wanna give the bones of like, yes, this is a thriller, it fits within the commercial thriller genre, but like, here's what makes it unique.

Cause we see so many of them, and truthfully, so many queries read like the exact same thing over and over again. They're different story, obviously they're giving us different comps, they're giving us different a different pitch. But like, they're very similar. So if you can find something in your story that is like the heart of your story, That doesn't mean it has to have a big moral, like, [00:32:00] but just like the thing that makes your story your story and highlight that in a way and, write that heart in, in a, in a beautiful way to show off your beautiful way that you're able to write.

Cuz you wrote a whole book, so I'm assuming you can write. That would be my recommendation for the query. The other thing I was gonna say. Because this is something that I've found that I was kind of, I guess, shocked by, but maybe I shouldn't have been shocked by. If you are editing your book and like polishing it and making it beautiful, don't just do the first three chapters.

Mm. Because I come into this a lot where I get so excited about something. I request the full, I'm like so excited, I'm gonna dive into it right away. And then you read the first three chapters, and then you hit a wall where the book completely changes and it's very evident that the author you know, maybe paid for like a three chapter query, query package or something.

So when you're doing that, when you're getting a query package or something, do it. That's a great idea. But take that advice and put it through your whole book because the moment that that [00:33:00] excitement drops off when I'm reading. And it's like the book is like a whole different tone or something.

All of a sudden it's very upsetting. 

David Gwyn: Yeah, I can imagine. And I, I feel like I've been guilty of that to, to a degree where I was like, I felt the urge I was like, oh, my first three chapters are like tight right now. Like, they're good. And you feel the urge to query. I think it goes back to that, that old adage of query long after you think you're actually ready to go.

Carleen Geisler: Yeah, I've been there 

David Gwyn: too. Yeah, for sure. Cool. So my last question is where can people find you? Where can people look you up? 

Carleen Geisler: Ooh. The best place is probably just the Art House website. I think my socials are all linked there. I'm on our page and everything. Otherwise I am at cl, g S L R at all the socials, 

David Gwyn: carlene, this was so much fun. I, I really enjoyed talking to you. Like I said at the beginning absolute story badass. So I feel like I learned a lot. I like made a bunch of notes over here as if I was a querying author. I'm like, what do you, what else should I do? So that was super cool. I really appreciate taking the time to chat with me.

Carleen Geisler: Yeah, [00:34:00] no, I appreciate it too. This was fun. 

David Gwyn: All right. So that's it. Carleen does an amazing job of laying out what to have in your opener. And remember if you want to hear more with her, be sure to grab the free bonus track with her linked in the description. 

The writer who's opening. You just heard. 

We'll be sending over her full to Carleen at ArtHouse. So be sure to send good vibes or prayers, or at least a thumbs up, if you want to be considered for the agent contest, make sure you sign up to be notified when submissions reopened. That link is in the description. Next time on the podcast, I'll be talking to JM Donellan. 

JM Donellan: I like to bounce around genres a lot, which I think helps. I think if you get stuck in one genre, you learn the conventions and it kind of becomes this mold, you can just keep recasting, which works well for some people. But I like bouncing around. For this one, it's very much a composite novel.

It came from a bunch of different places, which is my favorite way to build a book

David Gwyn: He talks about his new thriller rumors of her death. What's your definitely going to want to read. He talks about how to write a memorable antagonist and shares his advice on how he stays creative. And it's a piece of advice I've actually never heard [00:35:00] before. so be sure to subscribe so you don't miss it and I'll see you next week.