Dual Timelines and Strong Characters with Heather Levy

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EPISODE INFO:
Should you be writing characters first? 

Or maybe you should develop your plot? 

How do you write books with multiple timelines? Do you write them chronologically? Or linearly in relation to the thread of the story? 

Heather Levy is going to cover all this and more!

Plus, she struck up a really interesting debate and I’m curious about your take!

BIO:
Heather Levy is a born and bred Oklahoman and graduate of Oklahoma City University’s Red Earth MFA program for creative writing. The New York Times called her Anthony-nominated debut Walking Through Needles “a spellbinding novel at the nexus of power, desire, and abuse that portends a bright future” and the L.A. Times called it “a standout for its frank but sensitive exploration of trauma and desire.” Publisher’s Weekly says her thriller Hurt for Me “delivers both heat and heart.” Her novels focus on kink-positive stories centered around badass women. She lives in Oklahoma with her husband, two kids, and three murderous cats. Readers can follow her on X and IG @heatherllevy or on her website at www.heatherlevywriter.com 

Tweet me @DavidRGwyn

Transcript

Heather Levy: [00:00:00] If I'm not having fun with it, if I'm not, enjoying myself as I'm going through the writing process.

I know the reader's not going to enjoy it at all. So yeah, I, I definitely am approaching it as a reader whenever I am writing it. Because I want to, like I said before, I want to surprise myself and if I'm feeling something viscerally as I'm writing it I know that more than likely the reader will too.

David Gwyn: Should you be writing characters first, or maybe you should develop your plot? And how do you write books with multiple timelines? Would you write them chronologically or linearly in relation to the thread of the story? She struck up a really interesting debate on this topic. And I'm curious about your ideas. So after you listen head over to my Twitter account and check out my most recent tweet So you can weigh in on the debate I'm David Gwyn an agented writer navigating the world of traditional publishing during this first season of the thriller 101 podcast We're going to focus on building the [00:01:00] skills necessary to write the kinds of thrillers that land you an agent and readers I'm talking to agents authors and other publishing professionals about the best way to write a novel If you want the expert secrets, this is where you're going to find them.

Last time on the podcast, I talked to Catherine Mack about how she shifted tone and character from her typical thriller to something, well, as she calls it, thriller adjacent.

Catherine Mack: something that I learned through this. And if I look back on my career, like the books for me that have been the most successful, like the book that got me my first book deal and the book that has sold the most copies.

The book that sold the second most copies that broke me out in Hollywood. Like, all of those books, I was really pushing myself, I was really trying something new. So, You know, I was doing things deliberately, but I was also swinging for the fences. 

David Gwyn: Be sure to check out that episode. It's linked in the description. Today's guest is Heather Levy. She's a born and bred Oklahoman and graduate of Oklahoma City University's Red Earth MFA program for creative writing.[00:02:00]

The New York Times called her Anthony nominated debut Walking Through Needles a spellbinding novel at the nexus of power, desire, and abuse that portends a bright future. And the LA Times called it a standout for its frank but sensitive exploration of trauma and desire. Publishers Weekly says her thriller Hurt For Me delivers both heat and heart.

Let's not waste any more time. Let's get straight into the interview.

Heather, thanks so much for being here. 

Heather Levy: It's great to be here. Nice to meet you. 

David Gwyn: Nice to meet you. So your novel Hurt For Me is out now Can you tell us what it's about? 

Heather Levy: yeah, so hurt for me follows Ray Dixon a single mom who escaped being trafficked as a teen and Rebuilt her life as a professional dominatrix, which is something she keeps out of the public and, and her teenage daughter also does not know but when one of her high-end clients goes missing the lead investigator on the case Dayton Clearwater begins digging into her past, and then [00:03:00] she notices some women within her kink community.

are going missing, and she reluctantly teams up with Detective Clearwater to look into this underground group of rich elites who may be involved in not only the missing women, but her missing clients. And then, of course, as they start digging into things, she realizes that her dark past may be coming back to haunt her.

David Gwyn: Yeah, yeah, it's so, so cool and such a unique premise. So how did you come up with this story? 

Heather Levy: I'll tell you the really short version of it. So I was a part of a low residency MFA program many years ago. And my mentor was Lou Burney, author of Lou Burnery. His newest dark ride is out. Yay, Lou Burney.

He's like nominated for all these awards. And part of the residency is you get, you get to go back forever. Anytime that you want to go to workshops. And so I was at a workshop [00:04:00] and I was just, just kind of messing around and threw out an idea for, for this workshop exercise that we were doing.

And I was like, a single mom dominatrix becomes entangled in an underground. Like I just, you know, it, it just kind of hit me. I'm like, well, Actually, damn, I kind of really like that. And this was after walking through needles, I was written and prior to it being published. But I had already had a book deal.

And so I was like really kind of on the struggle bus trying to get into something else. And, and I tried to write that book and then I, I, I couldn't figure out a way, started working on something else during the pandemic that didn't pan out. It was like a horribly long time of, having horrible, not, not writer's block, but just motivation, like pandemic motivation issues.

David Gwyn: And 

Heather Levy: then I got on a call actually with my agent and she's like, yeah, this is, this novel is not working for me. [00:05:00] And then she's like, what else do you have? And so I just started talking about that. I did, you know, this, this single mom dominatrix. And she's like, yeah, you sound really excited about this. Like, Why aren't you, look, you know, try writing on this again?

And so I did, and I don't know if it was part fear that I wasn't going to get something out again. Because at this point, by this point, Walking Through Needles was out, my first book. And it had been nominated for an Anthony, so I was really trying to, you know, strike that iron while it was still hot.

So yeah, that, I, I just, the, I don't know, the fear and also because I was just really kind of enjoying myself. I was finding the fun in writing again after the pandemic blues. And, and I just, I just got that first draft out like within like two and a half, three months. Wow. Yeah, it was the fastest I had ever written a book and since then I've had to learn how to write a lot faster too, [00:06:00] but, so it was good practice, but yeah, it just came out just so quickly and it, it was just a fun ride just getting that book out.

David Gwyn: That's really cool. And so when you think about this project, what do you think it was that made you kind of keep coming back to it and was ultimately the one that obviously you had, you had been writing in your head and maybe didn't even realize that all of a sudden, you know, two and a half, three months later, it's out.

Like, what is it about this project that you think was so powerful for you? 

Heather Levy: I have a strong affinity for badass women, strong, badass women. especially women who have been through, you know, some kind of trauma even sexual trauma. And they have found empowerment in their sexuality again.

They found a way to reclaim agency in their lives. And and I was just What, what better way to reclaim agency after sexual trauma than to become a professional dominatrix who beats the hell out of men. [00:07:00] It's all fun. That's 

David Gwyn: great. That's awesome. So let me ask you, and I don't know how much you can tell us, but what are you working on now?

Heather Levy: Yeah I just finished, oh my gosh, as Hurt For Me was coming out, I was finishing up the draft for my next book, which I'm contracted to write. It was the first time writing a book under contract, so that was scary. So I was definitely writing really fast. So that's going to be This Violent Heart, which is going to be out February next year.

I can't remember the exact date, but February next year, around that time. And it is about a young therapist who reluctantly returns to her rural hometown where she unearths some unsettling revelations surrounding her teenage best friend's death, which may not have been caused by suicide, all while wrestling with her bisexuality and reconnecting with her best friend's twin [00:08:00] brother.

So, yeah, a lot of themes about religious trauma guilt and, you know, self acceptance, all of that. All the fun things, right? 

David Gwyn: Now I'm so, I'm so interested now and I'm curious about this and for people who are listening who are writers and I think that it's funny when I ask people about themes and thematically, like some people are like, yeah, I like have that in my head going in and some people are like, I have to read the book when I'm done to figure out what I was trying to say.

And so it sounds to me and I could be wrong. It sounds to me like You tend to have like a big idea that you're grappling with, and then, you know, you find the plot or find the story through that. Is that kind of how you go about this? 

Heather Levy: I, I typically the character's voice will kind of be first in my head.

And then I, once I have that, then I'm like, okay, I need a title. I am one of those people. I can't begin working unless I have a title. It's just weird. 

David Gwyn: And that's like the last thing I come up with. I'm just like, someone put a title on it, please. [00:09:00]

Heather Levy: And I've been lucky to keep all my titles. I don't know if that's going to be the case with this violent heart.

I hope it will be. But you know, it's, it's just one of those things. You don't have control over that as a, as an author. But, but yeah, I, I usually have that voice and then, and then, okay. What is this character one? I always go, you know, that's, that's what you do. Well, what is the character most desire and what the hell is in their way?

It's just, it's the basis of all writing. Right. And in the case of my characters they're usually women who have gone through some type of trauma, some, some type of extreme situation in their lives and then You know, them kind of tackling their sexuality as adults. So, trauma in youth, dealing with sexuality as adults.

David Gwyn: So it's a math, it's like a math problem, basically. Yeah, it's 

Heather Levy: a math problem.

The number's always different, but. [00:10:00]

David Gwyn: Exactly. I love listening to the way people do it. , so, it sounds like then you're not doing much, but. plotting. It sounds like you've got this, you've got a character and then you're just diving in. 

Heather Levy: Yeah. I, I know whenever I'm going into writing the novel, I, I do know two things.

I know that like the, the first kernel of the first scene, I know how it's going to end and I know the climax. Those are the three points. Outside of that I am a pretty bad pantser. I have, with this, this most recent book, I definitely did plot more because of the time constraints, but that is not how I work just naturally.

I just, I like to be surprised. I, I like, I like that journey. I feel like, you know, just kind of going on the journey with the, the character and they do surprise me quite often. So, and, and that's, that's what I, that's where I find the joy in, in writing. So [00:11:00] if I plan it out too much, I just. Eh, I get a little bored

I'm like, well now I know what's gonna happen, so I'll just have to write it. . 

David Gwyn: That's cool. So I wanna shift gears a little bit. We, we've already brought her up once which is Sandy, your, your literary agent. I always like to have authors who come on to, to just give their agent a little bit of shout out and talk a little bit about why they like working with them.

So tell me about Sandy and what's so great about working with her. 

Heather Levy: Yeah. Sandy Lu Bookwyrm agency. She, she's just so wonderfully supportive. The thing that I love most about Sandy is that. If I have an issue, , she quickly responds. Like, just recently, I'm, I'm going over revisions for the current book and I'm like like, I'm having issues with kind of figuring out something with the characters.

And so she just, she wrote me like a little book because she's actually, she's out of the country right now. So, you know, normally we'd probably, we'd get on a call, but but yeah, she just, she takes the time to really explain her thought process [00:12:00] and, and to really you know, open herself up to my ideas and I'm open to her ideas and and she, she's very honest if I am struggling, like with the case before her, for me, you know, she's, she's not going to beat around the bush.

But she's, she's so great with communication. She's fast. She's fast. And that was, like, having a responsive agent, I, I feel is just so important to keep that that relationship strong, because if you're chasing down an agent, like, I don't even know how that is because I haven't experienced that, but I, I have spoken to many of writers who have dealt with that before they had to change it.

They changed an agent because of that reason. I'm like, Oh, I'm so glad, like, like all the horror stories that people have. I'm like, I'm so glad I don't have to worry about that. She's always great with like letting me know. what's working, what's not working, and, but at the same [00:13:00] time, like, you know, being very supportive and, and letting me know, hey, this is really good.

So yeah. I love her. 

David Gwyn: Yeah, she's great. Well, I had, I, her episode actually went live, I think today. And I got to talk to her and really on it. Like I, it's funny when you say that she's honest, cause like I could tell we talked for like 20 minutes or so. And I was like, She is not going to sugarcoat anything.

She's going to tell you how it is. And like in a good way, like in a way that's nice, it's supportive. It's, it's, you know, from a, from a great place,

Okay, let's pause there for a second. First, if you want to listen to that episode I referenced with her literary agent, Sandy Lu, then check out the description because I linked it there for you. Next, I want to share a quick story.

I recently joined a Facebook group for thriller writers and I thought, finally, a place where we can talk about writing, the struggles of querying and being on sub, and Chat about books that we love and how we're using comps, but no, that's not what I found at all There was no advice being given no congratulations or [00:14:00] sharing of resources.

There was none of that It was post after post after post after post of self promotion and ads by authors Just promoting their books I've got nothing against marketing, but this just didn't feel like the place for it.

Needless to say, I haven't been back to that group. But it did get me thinking, did Thriller, Mystery, Suspense, and Crime Writers want a place that's just for us? And if so, what would that even look like? So, here's the deal. If this sounds at all interesting, I just need you to raise your hand and say like yeah, I'd think about being a part of a community that was focused on craft and support and advice and resources instead of constant self promotion and writer lifts.

So, if that does sound like you, and you want to know more, fill out the 30 second form linked in the description to essentially raise your hand. It just asks you for your email and first name, and that's it. So, if enough people are interested, I'll look into building something for us. In the next part of the interview, Heather shares how she writes her novels by [00:15:00] integrating character, but also how she writes the different timelines in her novels.

Is that moment I was talking about in the intro where Heather and I talk about the different ways of writing dual timeline, And which is better, be sure to check out my Twitter post to weigh in. Okay, let's head back to the interview. 

 There's a lot of writers who, who listened to the podcast. And so I like to ask a craft question now that I haven't already, but I am curious about your, your characters because you have this kind of you, you're, you're bringing together this past life with this current character's life and you're kind of merging these two.

And I imagine that's, that was hard to something that you were able to, I know you kind of said you, you have your benchmarks and then kind of write your way between them, but like, is that something that you had to go back in editing to move things around at all? Or did that come out pretty, pretty fully fleshed out?

Heather Levy: You know, I've had people ask me that before, like since I have written, two books now, well, three now with my current book with, With dual timelines and like, Oh, do I, you know, plan it [00:16:00] out? And as you know, I, I do not. Like, I I, I wish I could say that I go, you know, that I go through and I really plan out.

You know, like some people I know when they're writing dual timelines, they will write out like one timeline and then they'll write out the other timeline and then they, like, use whatever fancy software that they have to merge those timelines. I do not do that. I am like, I'm just, I guess, really old school and I'm like using a word.

So if I make a change, it's really annoying to have to do. So I try to get it right the first time. But no, I just, I kind of feel like it moves organically for me if I just write it. You know, as I'm going through the, the, you know, one timeline and then going into the next. Because I, I'm always thinking in the background, how I'm going to merge these timelines.

And, and how I'm going to have those pivotal plot points. Like, you know, [00:17:00] okay, I've got a climax here in the present. I want to have some type of climax in the, the past timeline as well. So that everything's kind of feeling, you know, Like, okay, yeah, they're two different timelines, but you're, you're seeing the, the arc of that character between those two timelines, those two ages.

So yeah, I, I don't, I, I wish I were more organized with it, but I'm not, and I don't know how it would be if I, if I did actually sit down and really, you know, write everything out each chapter, okay, now I'm going to do this and this. I don't know if it would have the same feel to 

David Gwyn: it. It's so funny. I have no proof for what I'm about to say, and I hope I don't spark some crazy Twitter battle.

But I wonder, I'm curious how, and I think you kind of mentioned it, which is as the climax is happening in one timeline that you're able to recognize that and write, something that is reflective of like the, the appropriate kind of merging of those two in a way that if [00:18:00] you had just plotted them separately and thrown them together, that they might not align.

And I'm wondering if like reader emotion is stronger because you're writing it the way we're reading it, if that makes sense, versus like those two timelines and then just kind of merging them together for plot purposes.

It sounds like you're doing it more for like reader purposes. You're thinking about it like a reader. I think that's really interesting. 

Heather Levy: Yeah. I am because I'm the first reader of, of what I'm creating. Right. If I'm not having fun with it, if I'm not, enjoying myself as I'm going through the writing process.

I know the reader's not going to enjoy it at all. So yeah, I, I definitely am approaching it as a reader whenever I am writing it. Because I want to, like I said before, I want to surprise myself and if I'm feeling something viscerally as I'm writing it I know that the, the reader more than likely the reader will too.

And I just don't know, like for, for me personally, if I were plotting it out and then, okay, [00:19:00] now I'm going to insert this part here and insert this part here. It just seems so clinical. So, and that just doesn't, doesn't make sense. It doesn't vibe with how I write, but great for people if they, if it works for them.

And I'm sure there are people who they're very successful with that. I'm just not. 

David Gwyn: And it's funny too, cause I, I, I hear that too from authors who are under contract that they tend to lean more on a plot, a plot plan or an outline of some sort. And I think that that's just naturally, if you're kind of up against the wall, like you're like, I gotta know where this is going.

So I'm interested to see what, what happens as you, as you continue your writing career, I'm wondering what books you've read recently or things that you really liked things that you're enjoying, just some ideas for, for people to think about if they, you know, if they like your stuff, other things that, that inspires you.

Heather Levy: Well, I just recently read One of the Good Guys. By Eremita Hall. I hope I'm, I'm probably saying her first name incorrectly. And she is a UK writer and that book [00:20:00] was out through Zando Gillian Flynn's imprint. And I've, I've really enjoyed that imprint's uh, books. It brought up a lot of questions about feminism and you know, how we react to that as a society.

So that was a, that was a really interesting, I, that's, that's definitely a book club read. So if you want a book club read, that's a good one. One of my, one of my good friends Paulette Kennedy, she writes the most gorgeous books historic gothic fiction. what time period she's wr Rebecca DeMaurier, of modern times, she really is she's got a book that's about to come out here next week The Devil and Mrs.

Davenport. And it's, it's just another knockout for me. It takes place in the fifties and it's, it's got like some some supernatural elements to it. But it's, you know, it's definitely [00:21:00] a conversation about how women were treated in that time period. And another friend of mine, Samantha Bailey a friend in the dark, which also is a kind of a different, a thriller, different take on a woman's sexual awakening.

And some really, just a really messed up twist in that book. It was one of the most recent books that I've read where I, my, I was like, what? And it takes a lot for me to be surprised these days with thrillers. Like I and I, I just, I, I try to read widely. But , I do love just beautiful language and I do love a good twist.

So those two, those, those three books definitely have, have some good twists in them and and some, some, you know, beautiful language too. 

David Gwyn: As you were saying these, I'm thinking in my head, because I just talked to Sandy a little while ago, and she talked about the things that she loves in writing, which is line level writing, and you know, a lot of the stuff that it sounds like is, you know, your passion as well, the things that you're interested in, too.

And then [00:22:00] thematically, I feel like you, that's, that's your vibe. And I think that's awesome. I think that's really cool. I think that you're doing work that needs to be done. You're, you're bringing in new, unique ideas. And I think to your point, like there's a lot of.

cookie cutter thrillers, you know, there's a lot of churn out a story people make a living doing that. But I think when it comes to looking for like a favorite or looking for a book that really feels really powerful to you. I think thrillers sometimes Get a bad rap because they don't always have the same thematic weight I think even like horror right now has like the books that are coming out in horror are insanely good They're thematically strong, and they're written really well, and I'm like, yo, come on, Thriller people, we gotta get on this, right?

Yeah, 

Heather Levy: and there, and there are so many amazing horror writers who are coming out, who are even combining that, that crime element, like Cynthia Cleo, as far as like the, the thriller mystery world that I can bring that kink [00:23:00] positivity that is greatly needed, that's kind of, that is out of everything that is you know, something that I, that I hope to insert in, in the books that I write.

Not that, not that it's always going to be really heavy, heavy kink, but my, You know, first three books, including the one that I just written, do have, you know, some kink elements to them. And yeah, I just hope to keep doing that. 

David Gwyn: So my last question for you is just where can people find you?

Where can people look you up? 

Heather Levy: Yeah I am on I'm just always gonna call it Twitter, so I don't care. , I my own kind of on there. Mostly on Instagram now, but on on Twitter and Instagram at Heather L. Levy. And people can also keep up with me on my website, Heather Levy writer.com. 

David Gwyn: If you're listening and you want quick access to Heather, I will link to all that stuff.

So you, you were able to find her right away. Heather, this was so much fun. Your book is getting a ton of well deserved praise. Congratulations. What a great read. 

Heather Levy: Thank [00:24:00] you. It's great talking with you. 

David Gwyn: Okay, so that's it.

How do you write your dual timeline? Make sure to let us know on Twitter, and be sure to hop down into the description for this episode and let me know if you'd be interested in a community of thriller, mystery, suspense, and crime writers.

Next time on the podcast, I'll be talking to literary agent, Michelle Jackson about a submission to the podcast. You're going to love this episode. She gives so much practical information. It's going to help you so much. I'm really looking forward to sharing with you. I'll see you next week.