Self vs. Indie Publishing and Writing Great Hooks with Author Daniel Hurst

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EPISODE INFO:
By the end of today’s episode you’ll understand 

• Why Daniel decided to go from self-publishing to working with an independent press
• His writing process
• You’ll have a better understanding of how he writes the kinds of clear, compelling hooks that make readers buy his novels. 
• He shares the biggest reasoning behind his decision to sign with a publisher.

BIO:
Daniel Hurst was born in the northwest of England, a part of the world famous for its comedians, pasties and terrible weather. 

He has been employed in several glamorous roles in his lifetime, including bartending, shelf stacking and procurement administration, all while based in some of the most exotic places on the planet, like Bolton, Preston and South London. 

Since following his lifelong passion for writing in 2020, he has amassed a loyal and devoted set of readers, and regularly has several books in the top 100 of the Psychological Thriller Charts on Amazon. His title The Passenger became the #1 selling psychological thriller in the UK in October 2021, and his bestselling book to date is his title The Doctor’s Wife, which topped the Amazon UK Kindle Chart on February 16th 2023. He remembers that date because he stayed up all night celebrating. 

Tweet me @DavidRGwyn

Transcript

Daniel Hurst: [00:00:00] Obviously there's going to be many kind of hard times where you're going to, be tired from your day job.

There might be some rejection. You might worry, is this going to work? I certainly had plenty of years when I thought, am I wasting, you know, all my nights here? You know, staying up till midnight writing. But I think it's find what works for you 

David Gwyn: at the end of today's episode, you'll understand why Daniel decided to go from self publishing to working with an independent press. Plus, he shares the biggest reasoning behind his decision to sign with a publisher. And ideally you'll be able to replicate how he writes the kinds of clear and compelling hooks that make readers buy his novels. I'm David Gwyn, an agent and writer navigating the world of traditional publishing.

During this first season of the Thriller 101 podcast, we're going to focus on building the skills necessary to write the kinds of thrillers that land you, an agent, and readers. During this season, I'll be talking to agents, authors, and other industry professionals about the best way to write a novel. If you want the expert secrets, this is where you're going to find them.

 Last week on the podcast, I talked to literary agent, Michelle Jackson. She [00:01:00] critiqued a Thriller 101 agent submission and gave so much advice about how best to go about submitting your query and opening pages to an agent. 

Michelle Z. Jackson: But you know it's about the character for me and once you grab me with that character I'm gonna want to read it and that's the key as an author, it's your job to make me want to keep reading. 

David Gwyn: If you want to check out that episode, it's linked in the description. Today's guest is Daniel Hurst. He was born in the Northwest of England, famous for its comedians, pastries, and terrible weather. He has been employed in several glamorous roles in his lifetime, including bartending, shelf stacking, 

and procurement administration, all while based in some of the most exotic places on the planet, like Bolton, Preston and South London. Since following his lifelong passion for writing in 2020, he has amassed a loyal and devoted set of readers and regularly has several books in the top 100 of the psychological thriller charts on Amazon.

Let's get straight to the interview.

Daniel, thanks so much for being here. I really appreciate it. 

Daniel Hurst: Yeah, no problem. [00:02:00] Thanks for having , 

David Gwyn: I'm really excited to chat with you about a variety of things.

I mean, you've got a book. Out called The Doctor's Child. Can you tell us what that's about? 

Daniel Hurst: Yeah, so The Doctor's Child is the fourth book in The Doctor's Wife series. So this is the fourth and final book and it's kind of the culmination of the whole series which the whole theme has been revenge and kind of each book in the series has almost been a main protagonist that's kind of had a different reason for revenge.

So this is kind of The, the the climax of the, everyone's revenge angle, everything gets sorted out in this book. 

David Gwyn: And so how did you come up with this idea for the story? And I think this series is really unique in the way that you structured it. So, you know, if you could talk a little bit about the different books in this series and how you decided on, on doing a structure like this for a series.

Daniel Hurst: Yeah, so it's interesting. The first book was actually intended to be a standalone book. And Obviously it was quite successful went to the UK number one in the Kindle store [00:03:00] So we started thinking about a sequel and again, I thought okay I'll do two books and that'll be it and then we thought we'll do a third one So actually this is the first book in the series I've written where I was kind of By the third book I was planning the fourth one so I could kind of plant a few seeds and start to think of different things which helps when you're doing a series.

So yeah with this one it's obviously it's called A Doctor's Child so it's quite a big hint about which who's going to be one of the main characters in this. Obviously it started, the first book in the series started with a doctor having an affair and his wife obviously discovers this. And it's about how she goes about getting her revenge, and the people that her revenge impacts on.

And then each book in the series, it kind of tells a story of different people who have been impacted by this. And you've obviously got the main character, the doctor's wife, she's in all the books. And she's kind of, it's hard to tell at this point whether she's the hero or the villain. I guess the readers can decide.

David Gwyn: That's part of the, the psychological part of it too. I think it's such an interesting idea and way of, of [00:04:00] thinking about a series, because typically what you see is, you know, you, we've got like a character, I mean, character and that character is like this really positive force that we really enjoy and we really like, and they just kind of go through the whole thing and I felt like this was so different and so unique.

And I, I love that it kind of came about organically. You're like, okay, well, where, where could we go next with something like this? I think that's awesome. And what I didn't realize actually that the first time we, we emailed back and forth is that you also have, you had another book come out in January, right?

The couple's revenge. 

Daniel Hurst: Yep. That's right. So that one was, it's all about basically a couple find out that their son is being bullied at school. And the traditional thing is you go into school, you see the headmistress and you say, this needs to stop.

And it's kind of what happens if it doesn't stop, how far will the parents go? To try and get to, you know, to save their child, basically. And it's kind of, obviously, the whole genre of psychological thriller, you're taking ordinary people, and putting them in these extraordinary situations. So, obviously, the parents in this story [00:05:00] kind of take their kind of desperation too far, and it gets a bit out of hand.

But yeah, obviously, the theme is bullying, and it's obviously, being a new parent myself, you kind of think, one of the worst things that could happen is somebody, you know, bullying your child. So, you know, kind of tapping into like, what would I do in that situation? 

David Gwyn: Yeah, it's so cool. And it's funny. I was looking at that.

Okay, so book in January book in May, and I was planning on asking you, you know what you're working on now, but I feel like you probably had an idea for a story this morning and it's already through draft one by tonight. Like, what are you working on now? 

Daniel Hurst: Yeah, so I actually started self publishing and that's quite One of my kind of I'm kind of known for being quite fast at writing.

I've kind of built up my pace over the years. And I'm very much a writer who kind of focuses his working day on actual writing all day rather than, you know, splitting it between writing and marketing. So I'm actually quite quick at getting the books out. I'm not as quick as I used to be, you know, I'm a new parent, but yeah, over the past few years I've been quite fast.

So yeah, I'm always very much kind of, the excitement is coming up with the idea. [00:06:00] Getting it down and then I'm on to the next thing and then the next idea and the next idea. 

David Gwyn: Do you find you have like kind of like a backlog of ideas? Like are you sitting on like 10 books over there and you're like, I just need the time.

Daniel Hurst: Yes, I've got the, obviously the notes app on my phone and that's got so many ideas and they're going back years, back to when I was commuting to my old job in the office. And I kind of feel I'll never go back to them because it's so old. I've got new ones coming through all the time. So yeah, it's a shame I'll probably never get to them.

David Gwyn: It's a nice lead into to where I want to go next. I want to talk about your your background, getting into writing and wanting to be a writer and self publishing. And now you're kind of at this place where you've signed with an independent press and it seems like a really great deal and a really great fit for, for what you're doing.

And so can you talk a little bit about wanting to write and how you got into writing and then how that transitioned into some of the success you've had? 

Daniel Hurst: Yes. So it was always a dream of mine. A childhood dream. I used to sit on the floor at mom and dad's house, write stories. You know, web cartoon stories, Power Rangers, that kind of thing.[00:07:00]

And it was always a dream that stayed with me into adulthood. And obviously it's quite difficult to, you know, you can say you want to be a writer, doesn't mean it's going to happen. But I just persisted with it. Got into my thirties and I kind of decided I'm going to take this serious. I'm going to dedicate as much time as I can around my office job.

So I was getting up early in the morning, evenings, weekends, and yeah, I started with self publishing just because I think I'm just too impatient to do it. submit something, wait a few months, get some feedback, try again. I was like, no, I'm just going to try this myself. So I just kind of jumped in at the deep end and just pulled out every idea in my head into various books and managed to get enough of an audience that it kind of attracted the attention of Bookouture.

David Gwyn: Yeah, that's awesome. And so now you've got this, this deal with Bookouture, how, how did you find that process, I mean, it's obviously different than self publishing. There's a lot more, at least a few more chefs in the kitchen there. So how, how different do you find that process? Are you [00:08:00] able to kind of maintain this quick speed and like, what were some, maybe some of the bigger changes that you noticed?

Daniel Hurst: Yeah, it's not quite as quick as self publishing, but I've definitely found it helps with story development and, you know, crafting the idea. So I'm almost too fast sometimes. I get the idea and I'll jump in, but then if you kind of step back a second and kind of take a bit more time to form the characters, or you can kind of find so many other ways that story could go.

So I've really enjoyed kind of working with the editor there and developing Not so much keen on the end process when the book's written and it's got various stages of edits to go through, but I'm kind of getting used to that now, but overall it's fantastic to kind of feel like I'm part of a team now rather than just me on my own kind of writing by myself.

David Gwyn: Yeah. And so what do you, what do you think it was that made you decide to go, obviously, you know, you had some success self publishing. What do you think it was that made you decide that you wanted to shift to publish in a more traditional route? 

Daniel Hurst: [00:09:00] Yeah, that's a good question. I think it was because I could see the reach that Bookouture had.

So for me it was very much, I could self publish a book and I would kind of see that initial kind of period of people finding it in the first few months and then it would kind of drift back into my day kind of back catalogue, and they'd always have to kind of feed the next book the next book. With Booutureaw it's very much, they will find various ways to push a title, whether it's Six months old, two years old, you've obviously got the reach of translations potential.

They've got people who work in film and TV, so there's always that opportunity. And yeah, there's just some audio books. Again, so many more ways they can kind of maximize one particular book. And it's so much more that I wasn't doing myself and I couldn't do it myself. I didn't have the time or the knowledge or experience.

So it's kind of good to team up with somebody who's got that kind of together. We can kind of bring my fan base and their fan base together. It's kind of a [00:10:00] recipe for success. I think. 

David Gwyn: Yeah, that's really cool. It's, it's interesting. Cause I was, I was thinking when you mentioned earlier that. The, the marketing part is not the thing that it gets you excited.

That it's really about the writing. And I thought, I wonder if that had something to do with it. And it sounds like it, it did is you know, inherent with self publishing is you got to do a lot of the marketing yourself. You're in a one person team, you know, you're writing, you're editing and you're, you're marketing

do you think that was like the biggest shift for you is the marketing? Or do you think it was the like editing and working with the team? Like if you could choose one that you were like, ah, this is like the biggest. Draw for me and your particular experience, which do you think it would be?

Daniel Hurst: Yeah, definitely the marketing was the draw because I never kind of paid enough, I've kind of done enough of what I needed to do to get myself published books out there, but there was so much more I wasn't doing different forms of advertising and just, just kind of knowledge and experience. You've got people in the office that will know, you know, they're not necessarily writers, but they're, they're full hundred percent marketers.

And I'm not at all. So it's like, I can write the book, hand it over to them, and then they can kind of work their [00:11:00] magic and I can just get on with the next story. And that's kind of, that suits me. Perfect. 

David Gwyn: Okay, let's pause there for a second. So far, we've talked about how he went from self published to independent publishing, and what he sees as the pros and cons of each.

In the next part of the interview, we talk about how he develops the unique hooks for his novels, how much plotting he does to keep up with his fast writing style, and you'll be able to use his suggestions to test your own hook and pitch. Before we head back to the interview, I want to share a snippet of Jody Wenner's article on Thriller101. com. It's called, On Brand, How to Build Your Author Platform. Here's just one piece of advice that she shares.

While it's great to have the stamp of approval from a small corner of the publishing world, and they do assist a bit in getting word out, At the end of the day, it's still up to me to keep the machine running.

Readers are not going to fall from the sky no matter how often I ask it of the rain gods. So, I needed to come up with a long term marketing plan, something that would work after going through all the usual steps that must be [00:12:00] done for each new release. 

 It's a great article about building an identity around your writing, and has insightful and actionable advice for any writer hoping to build their brand. You can find the link to that article in the description for this episode. So be sure to check that out and let's head back to the interview.

And so I'm curious about how you develop the hooks for your novels. I think they're so interesting and they're really, really they're clean in a way that like, there's, there's not a lot of questions from a reader, but like, Oh, well, what is this book about?

But there are a lot of questions about like, what is going to happen? And I think that that's just like really well done. It's. Is that something that you do early on in the book? Like, do you have a hook in mind? Drives your writing? Or do you have to kind of write through it to find that, like, essential piece of the story that, that turns into the hook?

Daniel Hurst: Yeah, I usually start with the hook, the kind of the what if question. So I've taken every day. I think it's interesting when you say quite a simple, you can kind of see what they're about straight away. I guess it's because I'm quite a simple, Guy, I don't enjoy things that are too complicated, [00:13:00] whether that's in books, TV shows or just in life in general.

I want, I want to keep things simple. So yeah, I kind of get the germ of the idea and then it just kind of, I'll take it from there, see where it goes. I have been known to kind of just have a starting off point in a book and just start writing it without the full kind of structure in place. I don't do that so much anymore because it's quite stressful.

But yeah, I am very much just kind of taking, taking these everyday situations, things that I go through myself, whether it's, you know, you could be sitting in traffic, you could be having a family event, you could be, you know, going out for a meal and then think, okay, can I make a story from this? What could happen?

So this is very much everyday scenarios, everyday things. So as I'm going about my day, I can always get ideas from that. 

David Gwyn: Yeah, that's cool. So it sounds like you started off not plotting much at all, and it sounds like maybe that's changed a little bit. Can you talk about that change and where you are now, how much plotting you do?

Daniel Hurst: Yeah. So again, I think there's quite a [00:14:00] bit of impatience when I started, and I just wanted to get a story out. I was excited to write. So once I had this first chapter in my mind, I was like, okay, let's just see where this goes and some ways that can work because you can kind of If you don't know where the story's going, the reader's got no chance of knowing, so then you can kind of shop them with some big twists at the end.

But obviously when I started working with Bookouture, they kind of wanted to see a pretty solid outline and structure before committing to a story, and I have found as well that that obviously helps having that roadmap, knowing where the story's going. But I also kind of warn, warn 'em as well that I might kind of veer off if I find something more interesting halfway through.

But I'll try to stick to the structure, but you know, the fun is in the kind of keeping it creative.

David Gwyn: So do you find that Bookateurs is looking for at least some semblance of what you're gonna do next?

Daniel Hurst: Yeah, especially the first time you work with them, they'll definitely want to kind of get everything kind of ironed out so they know what they're committing to.

I know we've done a few books together. They kind of understand, [00:15:00] I guess, each author they work with, everyone's got their own way of working. And I'll always be honest with them. I'll say, I've actually got a different idea for this chapter. Let's kind of try this. And then, yeah, we'll kind of shape it together at the end.

But yeah, it's, it's not too, it's not kind of limiting in any way. They'll, they'll give me that freedom to be creative. Yeah, that's really cool. 

David Gwyn: And so I'm, I'm curious. It's, it's funny. I've talked to a lot of writers obviously on, on the podcast and, and I always tell people who ask about like the writing process or, you know, where they are in their journey.

I tell them like the, the only thing that all writers have in common in terms of their, their path to publication is that they actually have nothing in common. Like they all, they're all the same in that none of them are the same. And you have a very unique path obviously as well. And so I'm curious if, you know, people who are listening are, are you want to be thriller writers they want to be published in, in kind of the same way that you are.

And so. If, if you're talking to one of those people as they're sitting there you know, probably commuting or sitting in their car, driving or [00:16:00] listening to this on a walk what do you think is like the, the one thing that you would want to say to those people? Given your unique background here 

what do you think that one thing would be? 

Daniel Hurst: First of all, it's quite bizarre when you mentioned people are going to be listening to this on their commute. Cause that's what I used to do. These kind of podcasts and dreaming of being an author one day. So I don't, I don't, I still don't see myself as any kind of expert.

What I would say to any authors is find kind of your way of working that would work for you. So what's your. What's the best system for you that's going to, you can be consistent at it and keep going. Obviously there's going to be many kind of hard times where you're going to, maybe you're going to be tired from your day job.

There might be some rejection. You might worry, is this going to work? I certainly had plenty of years when I thought, am I wasting, you know, all my nights here? You know, staying up till midnight writing. But I think it's find what works for you. So for me, It's very much all about the writing and the story, which is why I kind of don't spend as much time on the marketing side, because if I did that, that's kind of going to [00:17:00] risk burnout, it's going to kind of risk me getting bogged down in other things and it kind of takes the fun away for it.

So for me, it's kind of finding what I. What my passion was, which is just pure typing words, storytelling. And that was how I was able to keep going through those kind of tough times. It's just get the story down and I was putting things out into the world, trying to get some feedback from people, was it readers, you know, whoever it might be.

And once that was done, You get a first reader back, you get a second reader. It's just, you know, okay, I've got some, I've got two readers. I can get four. I've got four, I can get eight and I just kept writing. So, you know, if you've got that passion inside you, then just, just keep doing it.

David Gwyn: What a great message to end on.

So Daniel, my last question for you is just where can people find you? Where can people look you up? 

Daniel Hurst: Yeah. So my website is It's danielhurstbooks. com. So not a, not a very original name for my website. So now it's easy to remember and that's 

David Gwyn: what's important. 

Daniel Hurst: Yeah. Again, I'm a simple guy. And if you type Daniel Hurst into Amazon, you'll [00:18:00] see all my book covers and you can check me out there and you'll find my email address on my Amazon bio.

If anyone wants to email, ask any advice or just say hi. Always nice to chat to other authors.

David Gwyn: Yeah, that's cool. If you're listening to this, I will link to that stuff in the description so you have quick access to Daniel Daniel, like I mentioned, this was so much fun I really enjoyed talking to you, I mean, what a great thing for people to hear who are slogging through those times that, that you went through too.

And hopefully they can see the light at the end of the tunnel. So thanks for taking the time to chat. 

Daniel Hurst: Yeah. Thank you. It's just fun. Thanks for having me. 

David Gwyn: Okay. So that's it. I thought Daniel's inspiring words at the end will go a long way in helping anyone pursue a writing career.

I also personally learned the importance of writing clear hooks and it actually led me to revisiting the hook on my current work in progress. Just as a reminder, I write a weekly newsletter through thriller one on one with exclusive information, advice, and updates. You only get from the newsletter.

I talk about goal setting systems, productivity, and I share the best resources and advice for thriller writers from all around the internet. If you [00:19:00] want to level up your writing skills, be sure to subscribe. There's a link in the description where you can do that. Next time on the podcast, I'll be talking to Roxy Key.

 Her debut novel will be out by the time you hear that episode next week. So if you want to know all about why she wrote a prologue, how she wrote a really crisp, compelling opening, and so much more, you're going to want to check that out.

David Gwyn: Be sure to subscribe and I'll see you next week.