Thriller 101

Literary Agent Jenna Satterthwaite on Character Voice and Submissions She Can't Put Down

• David • Season 2 • Episode 10

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Jenna Satterthwaite: [00:00:00] But it's art! Art is weird and messy and complicated and finding the thing that resonates. It's not a straightforward, simple, bullet point list that's gonna get you there. It's a messy process and I wish everyone the best as they try.

David Gwyn: Welcome to the Thriller 101 podcast. Today we're doing something special. We're going to dive deep into the opening pages of a writer's manuscript alongside a literary agent to see what makes a gripping first impression. We all know that opening pages can make or break your chances at getting a literary agent's attention, so in this episode Jenna Satterthwaite and I will explore the elements that hook a reader, the common pitfalls to avoid, and how to craft those crucial first scenes that leave agents wanting more.

Whether you're in the query trenches now, or just working on your new manuscript, you won't want to miss this hands on critique and insider advice from an agent's perspective. I'm David Gwyn, a writer navigating the world of traditional publishing.

During the second season of the Thriller 101 podcast, we are going to continue to focus on [00:01:00] building the skills necessary. To write the kinds of thrillers that land you, an agent, and readers. During this season, I'll be sharing some of my own insights while also talking to authors, agents, and other publishing professionals about the best way to write a novel.

If you want the expert secrets, Thriller 101 is where you're going to find them. Last time on the podcast, I talked to Jason Rakulik

Jason Rekulak: process is, it's totally unique to you. You won't know what it is. And a mistake that a lot of writers make is just assume that there's only one way to do it.

David Gwyn: His new book is out now and is an absolute blast. You'll love the episode I did with him. We talk about character and voice and how he plots his novels.

That episode is linked in the description, so be sure to check that out after listening to this episode today. Today's guest is Jenna Satterthwaite, born in the Midwest. She grew up in Spain, lived briefly in France, and is now happily settled in Chicago with her husband and three kids.

Jenna is an Associate Literary Agent at Storm Literary and the author of Made for You. which is out now, Beach Bodies, which comes out summer of 2025, A [00:02:00] Killer Getaway, also summer 2025, and The New Year's Party, which is October of 2025. All right, we have a lot to get through in this interview, so let's get right to it. 

Jenna, thanks so much for being here. I'm really excited to chat with you. 

Jenna Satterthwaite: My pleasure. I'm Thrilled to be on this podcast. 

David Gwyn: So we're gonna, we're gonna talk about a submission here in a little bit, but before we do, I wanted to say like, obviously you're also a writer and you wrote the book Made For You, which came out over the summer.

I wanted to first say congratulations. And then second, can you tell us what it's about? 

Jenna Satterthwaite: Absolutely. It is a synthetic woman and kind of alternate present America. Who competes on a reality TV dating show that's modeled after The Bachelor. And she's the only synth on the show. So she's competing against human women for the love of Josh, The Bachelor.

So that is one timeline. And there's a second kind of murder mystery timeline where she's married The Bachelor 15 months later. And he's disappeared. And everyone [00:03:00] of course blames her because she's the different one, the one that everyone was scared of anyway. And she's kind of the only one sticking up for herself and heads on an investigation, an investigation to figure out what happened to him and also protect the baby they've had together.

which, you know, her rights over that baby are in question because she's not a human. 

David Gwyn: And so tell me a little bit about the origin of this book. It's really interesting. I, as I was reading it, I was kind of imagining where it might've come from, but I'm really curious what, what your, what your kind of background is on this.

Jenna Satterthwaite: So I wrote it two years ago, March of 2022 to about May was the first draft. And honestly, you know, we weren't talking. a ton about AI at that point. But AI is, you know, it's been around in the literary world for a very long time. So I was directly inspired by a book called The Ones We're Meant to Find.

It's a young adult sci fi that is just spectacular. It's gorgeous, you know, literary leaning [00:04:00] writing, beautiful world building, intensely emotional. and the book had put into my mind the idea of, you know, bots that look like people, and you can't tell that they're not people. So that was kicking around, and then I was watching Love is Blind at the time, and taking like a walk during my break at work along the Chicago River, and thinking about the drama on Love is Blind, and Suddenly it just popped into my head like what if you put a synthetic person into reality tv But no one knows because she looks just like a human Then they're gonna find out and what would happen and then let's toss murder in there too because murder makes everything fun in books So yeah, it's really, I think, you know, I've written a lot of books over the past decade, most of which will never see the light of day, but my ideas almost always come from other art.

You know, they don't come randomly or just from my life. There's a spark from a TV show or another book or a series of [00:05:00] books. So I just find that consuming other people's creations always, I think, creates the best possible scenario for kind of ignition. of that idea. And that was certainly the case with Made For You.

David Gwyn: Yeah, I think it's interesting. You know, obviously I talked to a lot of authors on here and it always does seem like these two ideas that's that smash together. And yours, I think is really interesting because it's so it is a thriller, but it has a great, I think, social commentary element to it, which I think is really interesting.

It's something obviously that like, between AI and reality TV. Like there's a lot going on there. That felt very timely too. And, and I'm, I'm curious, was that something that you thought about going in, or is that something that kind of emerged as you were writing? 

Jenna Satterthwaite: The social commentary happened naturally as I went. Every book that I write starts with a very simple idea with not a lot of layers to it. There's kind of that very basic spark of, Ooh, synthetic person, reality TV, boom. And then it evolves as it goes. And so [00:06:00] usually what works its way into my books is whatever I'm processing at the time, whether it's news from the real world or, you know, my personal journey.

So at the time, my sister was dying when I wrote this book and died shortly after I finished it. She was 30, oh gosh, I think she was 34 when she passed away, left behind a husband and four little kids. It was a huge tragedy and it had been a long time coming, but A lot of the book for me was actually processing the pain of that experience.

Then the social commentary kind of came in as the sprinkle on top. So, to me, like, the heart of the book is about grief and about encountering limitations. And, you know, the main character in Made for You, Julia, goes through a journey that really breaks her down. She starts off very sparkly, she's new, she just woke up, she's going to find love, it's fantasy time, and she just assumes her life will be this smooth, beautiful journey.

That reflects how a lot of us At least those of us [00:07:00] who didn't have traumatic childhoods, I'll disclaim that see the world in our 20s. It's opportunities. It's finding love. It's finding the perfect job. It's very sparkly. And as we get older, like crap happens and people start dying. So this is me processing that.

Like what happens when the youthful, hopeful, strong you is no longer the strong you, it's the broken down you. It's the you who believed that you had all the strength within you and then you realized that was kind of a myth and like more like a slogan on a t shirt. Like it's, you know, it's nice, it feels good to say that, but, you know, if you look at, I guess, the human experience you have to admit we have limits.

There are things that break us fully that we cannot recover from. And that's terrifying, like terrifying. Because I've always grown up as like, my mom used to say, you're an American, not an Americant. Oh, dear Lord. I hate that. But I really did grow up [00:08:00] with that can do mindset kind of hammered into me and to figure out that, oh, I can't do.

And my sister, who's dying, can't do. And this is the end, and boom, it's done. Was just something that I wanted to reflect. And then of course, you know, as I wrote, especially Julia's marriage to the Bachelor, and her relationship with her creator, and then her relationship with society. She's one of three of her kind.

There's an immense pressure on her to prove that she is, good, kind, relatable, et cetera. It's a pressure that I've witnessed a lot of minorities endure, especially over the past few years. And it goes back much longer, but I've been especially aware of it since Black Lives Matter. Just the things that have been going on societally in the States.

It's put the spotlight on that for me. And so I wanted to reflect some of that as well. So it's a real mishmash of like personal grief. I would say spiritual [00:09:00] deconstruction. You know, do we have a creator? Is he, she, it, they good? Or evil. Why do we have to suffer so much? Is there a point? You know, what does it mean to be human?

Is suffering an important part of the human experience? Does it make us better at the end? Or is it merely a destructive force? Sorry, I could go on and on. 

David Gwyn: This is, no, it's really interesting. I'm like insanely interested. sitting over here like thinking, forgetting that we're recording something. So you wrote this, you said between March and May of 2022.

Was this, was this, were these deep? the deep thinking you were doing on these big ideas. Was this happening while you were drafting or is this something that you got the draft out and you were like okay I see that like the pieces of the ideas that I'm focusing on now I want to deepen those as I go. 

Jenna Satterthwaite: No, it all came out in the first draft and the first draft is actually This is not the case for all of my books, but for this book, it is very similar to the printed form.

Like, it did go through, obviously, some revising and some fine tuning, but [00:10:00] it really didn't change much from first draft to To published form. It, it feels almost like, oh gosh, this is a gross image, but like vomiting. Like when I create, when I create something, 

just, something about the process brings up just all the things, all the things that I've been mulling over, all the things that are hurting me in the moment, and it kind of naturally Just spews.

I don't know why I chose that metaphor, surely it's a more gentle, beautiful one, but, yeah, this is consistent. Every book that I've written is like this. It's, you know, usually a high concept or something that I think is fun, and I think I'm going to have a great time writing it, and I usually do, but as I write, all of my crap comes out, and it's pretty much, it becomes like a therapy session, a free therapy session.

David Gwyn: There you go. The best kind. 

Jenna Satterthwaite: Yeah, there you go. 

David Gwyn: Cool, so I want to, I want to shift a little bit, and because I literally just saw this on Twitter, we got to talk about it a little bit before we started recording, but you [00:11:00] have some news. that's coming up. Can you tell us about A Killer Getaway?

Jenna Satterthwaite: Absolutely. So Made For You was my debut. It came out in July. That was part of a two book deal with Mira. So I do want to say that the second book in that deal will come out next October. So fall of 2025, it's going to be the New Year's party. And it's a locked room, murder mystery, group of friends, 10 people, 24 hours.

One will die. Who killed them? I had a blast writing it. That was great. But that, so I was thinking like it would be made for you, then it would be New Year's party, and after that was all kind of done, I would seek to get my next book out there. But this kind of random opportunity came up I guess December of last year or so I connected with an editor from Penguin Random House UK, Trans World, and wrote a thriller romance.

called Beach Bodies. So Thorne Ryan is my UK editor, and they pulled World Right, so they went on and sold it to the US, and the US [00:12:00] announcement came out today. So the US title will be A Killer Getaway, and it's a super fun, and I don't say that lightly, super fun, murderous resort beach romp on an island.

Basically, the main character, Lily, goes back to this resort every year. And it's, it's not really a spoiler, because it's in the deal announcement, but she's, you know, she's there to kill. Once a year. For reasons that you'll discover when you read the book. And she's got her little groove, but unfortunately in the summer you know, in the book, there's someone that might be onto her, or might not, we're not sure.

But he's very attractive, and we might also need to fall in love a little bit. But we also might need to kill him, because if he's onto you, you know, gotta take him out. So it's this very fun, I guess, kind of cat and mouse game, romantically, and on the thriller side, where they both are super into each other, but really coming at life from opposite sides.

But there's some profound similarities as well that I think are what ultimately [00:13:00] attracts them together. And it was really fun to look at the subject of justice. Not to get too deep because no one's read it yet, but don't 

David Gwyn: give anything away, but I love, I love it. I love that. You're always, you have that, the level, the layers, which is cool.

Jenna Satterthwaite: No, it was fun to kind of take just the topic of justice and look at it from the side of the law and from the side of revenge and really take kind of a deep dive into how people develop one mindset or the other and put them into conflict with each other. It's fun. It'll be out next summer. So, you know, put it on your beach read list for 2025.

David Gwyn: Well, I'll have to have you back. You can talk about it. 

Jenna Satterthwaite: So 

David Gwyn: let's, let's talk a little bit about agenting here. What made you want to become an agent? 

Jenna Satterthwaite: Oh gosh. This is another one of those answers that could be very long, but it goes back to my sister's death. She, so 39 and I don't know, like, I guess the last year of my sister's life, her name is Heidi, she actually fulfilled a huge dream [00:14:00] of hers, which was choreographing.

So she was a ballet dancer she had kids really young as well, so she would still do like her dancing on and off between pregnancies and all of her other life stuff, but she always had a passion for choreographing, but never really got the chance to go at it full on cause she became a mom so young, and just had a very busy life as an army wife moving around. But that last year of her life, she was able to choreograph a whole ballet, Cinderella, for Safe Haven Ballet in outside of Boston. And it was just like, even though she was literally dying, she called it the best year of her life because she was doing something that she loved.

And it was so powerful and life changing to me to witness the joy that she had in doing this creative work. You know, even as literally her life was draining away, she, I remember would be on zoom if she was like hospitalized and she would run to Dance sessions from the hospital [00:15:00] on zoom with the company and like it, I just, you know, you think hospital, sad, tired, sick, and that is true.

And we experienced that, but the creative side of her life just kind of infiltrated all the other parts, even the sad parts and gave it this brightness. So I think I know that was part of why I decided to agent After she died, I was approaching 40, which is a big number You know It's that like midlife crisis moment where we take stock and we're like what did I do for the last two decades?

dad gum like you know and you really do take stock of what was worth it and what wasn't and I also used to think of 40 is old but turning 40 If you actually add up your working years, I have more left than what's behind me. I have 27 years at least before I retire. That's a ton, a ton. I mean, I could have multiple other careers in that time.

So there was a real like reframing that happened between seeing her experience you know, [00:16:00] fulfilling her dream. And then realizing that I had 27 years left. It was very cool actually. And I think I had been so focused on breadwinning for 20 years for my family. My husband's a stay at home dad, so I support our family of five on the financial side.

I was always so caught up in just paying the bills that I never really took stock of. Is there a career that I would also find fulfilling? Because I just did that in my evenings. That's when I wrote my books. I was like, you know, I'm lucky I'm writing my books. I do what I love but it doesn't pay the bills and that's okay.

And that is okay. But long story short I kind of realized Through working with my agent for so long and you know trying to sell books with her for so long and failing I actually love the agenting side of it. I love editing. Obviously, I love books. I love working with creatives. I love sales. Like, I don't know, that sounds weird, but I love pitching things to people and drumming up excitement for things that [00:17:00] I am passionate about.

And so far in my 20 years in the working world, I've done it for like beverages and other products, which I don't actually care about at all. But the idea of doing that for books, for things that change people's lives. was so deeply exciting. I'm also highly organized. I love my spreadsheets. So the whole idea of, you know, negotiating contracts and following up like that, you know, that does not intimidate me at all.

David Gwyn: So 

Jenna Satterthwaite: anyway, I dove into multiple internships last year. I interned with Liza Dawson. Then I interned with Reese Literary. And that was kind of like my testing time for myself. I wanted to answer two questions. One is, am I actually good at this? Or do I think I could actually be good at this? And number two, do I have the time?

David Gwyn: Yeah. 

Jenna Satterthwaite: Once I start taking on authors, I have a moral responsibility to them, to do as much in my power to not let them down. Sometimes letdowns happen, life happens, but I wanted to go in [00:18:00] feeling confident that this is something I could sustain long term, alongside My full time job and my authoring. And during the internships, I was like, Oh, heck yes.

Like I can absolutely do this. And somehow I feel like I have more time than ever. Like the life and energy that I get from doing it makes everything feel more expansive, which was surprised me. So, yeah, I joined Storm in January and I've. really like dove in head first. I'm not a spring chicken anymore.

I'm still young, but I'm not 20. And I want to build this now like yesterday, like let's go. So I've signed a lot of authors. And thankfully I've also made a lot of deals. And the first one went live today. 

David Gwyn: Nice. 

Jenna Satterthwaite: My author Claire Barner is going to be publishing her debut moon rising, which is coming out.

It's this lovely romantic sci fi about basically, I mean, it's like slight near future [00:19:00] climate change is wreaking havoc on Earth, and so we've built the first lunar base. And our main characters are, you know, going there for various reasons of their own. One of them is there to grow a sustainable food source and try to get, like, tomatoes to thrive.

And she smuggles in some chickens because we all like eggs. And then another character is building the moon's first hotel. And he's trying to launch, you know, tourism on the moon. So it's just so fun. like a little bit cozy, but there's eco terrorists and some like bombing too. So there's like some some fun action and it just has everything.

And I'm thrilled that she'll be publishing that with diversion books next summer. So July of 25 and then a second book a year after that. Wow, that was long. But yes, that is the first announced deal. But I feel very lucky to have great clients and they're like six more deals like that I have not been able to announce.

So I've been able to really, I guess, start off with a bang thanks to signing some amazing people. [00:20:00] And I'm like just sitting on these other six, like, let's go, let's go. When can we get the announcement out? Cause they are just so talented and they're all doing such fun, different things. Yeah, lots of fun stuff to come.

David Gwyn: Yeah. And so tell me a little bit about what, like what genres you're looking for? What, what are you kind of hoping comes through your inbox? 

Jenna Satterthwaite: Yeah, so I am super omnivorous as a reader and that's exactly what I'm doing as an agent. There is almost nothing that I won't look at. I won't look at super hardcore like erotica or You know military sci fi is not my thing.

I don't know for marching around in armor a lot. Like I don't know that's probably not me, but anything else like let's do it. So between middle grade Middle grade all the way up to adults. I will look at any genre. I'm also open to nonfiction on the adult side. Also anything, surprise me. I'm looking for experts in their field [00:21:00] who have the ability to get the general population like myself excited about something very niche that they know all about.

So I am open to queries right now. I might not be for much longer. Max till the end of October, but we're hitting like 600 right now unanswered and I'm like drowning. So we'll see, but I love variety. And even with my existing authors, I mean, we've got the sci fi that we announced today, romance, funny mystery that's kind of like only murders in the building, we've got I just offered on some very serious literary horror.

I'm crossing my fingers that he signs with me, he knows who he is. I just, I get excited by, I guess, seeing what people have to say. And they have to say very interesting things, like, in many different formats, so yay. When you're, I 

David Gwyn: mean, you're obviously looking at different genres here. What is something that you think you're looking for in those first, like, five to seven pages?

Especially, obviously, you know people who are listening [00:22:00] to this are generally thriller, suspense, mystery, crime, fiction, even some horror. You know, what are you looking for in those first five to seven pages? 

Jenna Satterthwaite: This will sound vague, but I promise to define. I am looking for spark, but that can come in many forms.

I'm hesitant to make like a list of rules because they just don't always apply. And I'm frequently surprised by what I'm drawn to. But one of the, one of the things that can make your first pages stand out is voice. Voice to me is the personality of your pages. the kind of immediate mood that you're pulling the reader into.

And you know, the way to construct voice, it's kind of hard to define. Sentence length, vocabulary choice, you know, are we doing a lot of run on sentences because we're in the character's brain, or is it kind of removed and cold but chilling? Like, you can do it, you know, an infinity of ways, but is there a strong sense of, oh, there's a personality [00:23:00] in this writing?

Another way to do it is something just unexpected that can be even word choice. There was a Thriller client that I signed, A few months ago, and I can't, I can't really quote the exact sentences, but I remember it being like, okay, yeah, and I got to some sentence and she was describing something like a desk or something very simple.

There's just one word that was surprised me that you normally wouldn't use in that kind of sentence. And that always catches my attention. I've noticed. And I feel like Andrea Bartz does that really well. Like, if you want to look at an author who's doing exactly what I'm talking about, she will have a sentence about, like, an armchair, just describing an armchair sitting there, but she'll use some weird word that just wakes you up.

So I'm looking for writers to wake me up, whether it's with strong voice. you know, surprise, a surprising word choice. Not too many though, I don't want to be overwhelmed and battered, but just, you know, sprinkled. Beautiful writing is great, but I honestly also love super clean [00:24:00] commercial writing that kind of disappears, where the plot doesn't have a lot of extra words tossed on top, where it's bare bones and like clean tasting, like a good martini, I don't know.

Yeah, I think. what doesn't work for me generally in the opening pages, cause I think that's just as helpful is to hear like what, what doesn't work is confusion. If I can't understand what's going on within the first couple of pages, actually within the first page it's hard to find a reason to keep going.

And that could mean, I don't know who's talking. I don't know like what historical era we're in, where we are. But. I could see someone brilliant actually doing something confusing and pulling it off, but that's like the genius. So unless you're a genius, you know, give those, give me those grounding details that help me understand or get a foothold.

on the path that you're about to take me down. 

David Gwyn: Yeah. It's so interesting. I [00:25:00] I've had the privilege of talking to of a fair number of agents on here and I'm always trying to find threads, like what is the thing? And I think, you know, you, you mentioned this earlier, I mean, you're, you're sitting with 600 queries or whatever it is at this point.

And like, I think the thing that a lot of agents say is like, Yes, it helps to have the genre conventions, but there has to be something there that sticks out from the other 100 or 200 thrillers that you're sitting on and and it can be a word choice It can be voice it can be a variety of different things But in those first couple pages there has to be something there that just draws attention. And I think that, you know, you might kind of mentioned there's like a fine line between like that and then like confusing somebody . Like it's a hard, it's a hard thing. It's a hard line to draw. Oh yeah. And I think a lot of, a lot of writers are, are trying to do that.

And I, I talk about that a lot on here. Like you, it's same but different. Right. Yes, I know the conventions, that's the same part, but mine is different because, like, [00:26:00] it's like this book, but it's different because and I think that's like the thing that seems to be the common thread among agents, which is like, we're reading a lot of submissions, give me something that gives me a reason to continue.

Yeah. Right? I think that that's 

Jenna Satterthwaite: It could be anything, which I know must be so frustrating to hear, because everyone wants that, like, one sentence, like, tell me the thing I have to do. Cool. 

David Gwyn: Well, you're on the writer's side too, so I'm sure you've kind of lived that same, those same feelings, you know, where you're like, just tell me, I'll do it.

Jenna Satterthwaite: Exactly! I want in! Someone tell me what to do and I will obey! And I wish it was that simple. But it's art! Art is weird and messy and complicated and finding the thing that resonates. It's not a straightforward, simple, bullet point list that's gonna get you there. It's a messy process and I wish everyone the best as they try.

David Gwyn: Okay, we're going to get into this submission here in a second, but I wanted to pause because I think Jenna has identified a ton of things that are so beneficial [00:27:00] to think about as you're querying. One is this idea that voice can really, really make a story stand out. If you're not nailing voice in especially those opening chapters, that's something you definitely want to go back and check.

You want to make sure that you have a distinctive, unique character who is walking a reader through the story. their story. They're helping them navigate this story. And if that's something that you don't have, or you're not sure, then it's something you definitely need to nail down before you keep querying.

The other thing I want to point to is just like the sheer number of queries that, that agents get. I can't imagine how hard it is to find a story in that haystack that you're excited about. And I imagine a lot of it has to do with, like, how you're feeling in that moment, what you happen to be looking for.

 That's really what made me want to create a community for thriller, suspense, mystery, and crime fiction writers. The querying world, and even just writing, is so hard, it [00:28:00] can be devastating and so rewarding, but the thing that we all need, the thing that we lean on when it gets tough and when there are days or weeks or months where you're not hearing much, the thing that we all lean on is community.

And so I really wanted to focus on the community aspect of bringing people together who are all in on this journey together while also helping them grow as writers by bringing in experts and industry professionals. And then the other piece of it which I think is really important here is networking and building connections, 

your query will stand out in an agent's inbox if you have something that makes it stand out. Maybe you've met one of their authors in one of our Thriller 101 events 

. Maybe you heard them speak at Thriller 101 event

 Or you get to actually talk to an agent at an exclusive Thriller 101 community pitch event. Either way, you want to make sure that you're putting your best foot forward and sometimes that means doing the connective [00:29:00] piece outside of just writing. There are so many good books that get overlooked. We hear this all the time. So how can you make yours stand out? Sometimes it's that little bit of personalization. It's that little bit of connection. It's showing an agent that you're invested in the industry, that you're invested in improving as a writer.

And you actually have an interest in what they want as agents and what they're looking for. So if you really want to make 2025 the year you sign with your agent, then check out the link in the description. It'll have more information about the Thriller 101 community. I'm really excited about this. I will say though, I have to limit the number of people who are in just because of how much I want to deliver and I want to build cohorts and I want to build a community and that really doesn't happen if it gets too big.

So I really want to keep this first cohort limited. Also, because it's the first cohort, I am really looking for people who are invested in helping me improve and develop this community into [00:30:00] something that, that benefits writers.

We're gonna get into the submission now and then we'll hear more from Jenna.

Paula: Summary: Ben and Jennifer are getting married with a summer camp themed wedding. On the way to the campground the wedding party learns a serial killer has escaped custody in the area, but it shouldn’t affect their plans. Allie hates the woods but can’t turn down the bride, once a very close friend, but now an acquaintance at best. She begrudgingly goes, consoling herself with the promise of free booze. Gabe also doesn’t want to go to the wedding, but being the groom’s brother there is no way he can refuse. Ben and Gabe have had a rivalry throughout their life and to further complicate matters Gabe is having a secret affair with the bride Jennifer. But they aren’t the only ones with a secret. One by one members of the group turn up dead. Is the escaped serial killer responsible or is it one of the party?

Chapter 1:

Wednesday, July [00:31:00] 21st, 2004. 

I hate the woods. I hate the dirt. I hate the trees. And I fucking hate weddings. When Jennifer told me they were having a camping wedding, I wanted to find some plausible reason for why I couldn’t go. Work wasn’t a good enough excuse, she knew I didn’t give a shit about my job. And she’d never buy a family emergency. I had to go. So there I was bright and early Wednesday morning, trying to find my black bikini, wondering what the hell else to pack for a wedding in the woods, sunshine pushing obnoxiously in through my window. I should’ve packed before, I realized this, but in my usual style I had been putting it off. Last night after my closing shift at the bar, the other bartender, the new bus boy and I got a teensy bit hammered.

My head pounded now. Is that why they call it hammered? What I needed was just a little nip of something to take the edge off the headache. Or maybe just some coffee and Tylenol. I [00:32:00] padded lightly to the kitchen downstairs then realized my roommates were all gone, off to work already and I didn’t have to worry about being quiet. Hopefully I worried about it last night. I grabbed a bottle of Prosecco and the Simply Orange from the fridge then a jelly jar from the dish drying rack.

The cold liquid bubbled into the jelly jar, sparkling in the light. I added a splash of OJ, just a splash. If my grandmother taught me anything it was how to make a proper mimosa. I took a little sip. Sweetness filled my mouth first then the bite of the alcohol. Grandma’d cringe at the bottled OJ but she’d approve of the ratio.

The cool liquid was refreshing, but the drink wouldn’t stay cool long. It was only a little after ten and already eighty degrees. It seemed like since I moved to Portland each summer was hotter than the last.

There was a knock at the door, making me dribble the last sip onto my shirt. Shit. I’d have to change. It must be Dana. She’s early, and in other news we need [00:33:00] air to breathe.

I plop an ice cube while the knocking continues, this time louder. Jesus, the woods will still be there.

I open the door fully expecting an earful from Dana, but it’s not her. It’s the bus boy. Shit what was his name and what was he doing here? His beautiful light blue eyes, made all the more startling by his dark lashes and light brown skin, were directed right at me. He had a backpack slung over one shoulder.

Cedric: Am I late?

David Gwyn: Cool. So let's, let's talk about this submission that you, that you enjoyed here. And let's start with the pitch. How do you think the pitch fits what you're looking for in a submission? 

Jenna Satterthwaite: I mean, I'm a huge thriller reader. I'm omnivorous, I do all the genres, but I do love my thrillers. It's what I read if I have free time.

I'm going to be reading Andrea Bartz or Lucy Foley. Yeah, so I think seeing the Lucy Foley comp up front immediately made me pay attention. And I just love a large cast mystery. especially that has [00:34:00] recognizable roles, like at a wedding, you've got the bride, you've got the groom, you've got to this, you've got to that, and Lucy Foley uses that kind of method for a few of her novels.

gives you something to anchor yourself to and allows your brain to start spinning like ooh you know the bride is she like really so great you know the groom I don't know you just start kind of wondering on your own because we all know the format of the wedding there's gonna be a rehearsal dinner they're gonna be families from two sides coming together there's so much fun potential for conflict so the concept is That's immediately appealing to me.

And the combination of light and dark. That's appealing. A wedding is happy and fun and beautiful. Murder is not. So juxtaposing, I think, you know, in this genre, like a yacht with murder or like the book that I just announced today, you know, a beach, a resort with murder, having the kind of fun, frothy side that readers can really experience a little bit of escapism through, but then bringing that dark into it.

It just makes the fun [00:35:00] escalate as a reader, not in real life, but as a reader. Yeah, I love that about this pitch. 

David Gwyn: Let's talk about these these first couple of lines here first couple of paragraphs What do you think was the biggest strength of these opening paragraphs? 

Jenna Satterthwaite: Well, we just talked about voice.

So I'm gonna say voice Right away. You feel that you're working with a strong personality and I think You know, me, I don't know if especially in the thriller space, it might be true across genres. I'd have to think, but readers love being inside a decisive, strong personality, even as they're doing bad things.

Sometimes, you know, especially because they're doing bad things. I don't know what it is about that little magic, but it's enticing and it makes you want to know, what are they going to do next? And the worse, the better, almost. And you kind of see the main character in this sample I don't know, playing with the line and excusing herself.

I'm looking at some of the phrases like, I got a [00:36:00] teensy bit hammered. That's an oxymoron! Teensy and hammered? I love that she put those together. That immediately reveals something about the main character, which is that she is, you know, perhaps living in an extreme, possibly dangerous, line crossing way, but she's very eager to make it seem cute and excusable and fine, and I find that intriguing, and I want to see what this girl gets up to.

David Gwyn: Yeah, it's so funny. That's the, that's the thing that I noted too, and then as you were talking about the things that you look for, and you mentioned voice, and I was like, ah, that's why I always, I'm always wondering, like, Why agents pick certain submissions and it's usually when I ask like that question of like, what are you looking for?

They usually say something. I'm like, boom, that's why they chose this submission. And it's totally the voice, like the voice here. I feel like it was so well done because it wasn't overdone. Like there were just these like little subtle, not even necessarily full sentences, like second halves of phrases that you could highlight the voice here. And where this, where this writer is just again, just [00:37:00] dripping it not like over, not like a paragraph full of voice and then back to setting like it's like it's throughout the whole piece. And I think that's really important for people to think about as they're working on their own books, which is, you know, do you have a distinctive voice?

And like you mentioned, I mean, that that just turn a phrase like a teensy bit hammered, like that Could be the thing that makes an agent say, I'll give it another page. 

Jenna Satterthwaite: Absolutely. Just that sentence, that teensy with the hammers catches my attention. It's so smart. It's a wonderful combination that, you know, again, says a lot about the personality we're like looking at the story through.

I love the sunshine pushing obnoxiously. I love the, just a little nip of something to take the edge off, which feels a little bit like the teensy move, like just a little nip, we're, we're making a lot of excuses for ourselves, but then we get the hint with the grandma, Grandma'd cringe at the bottled OJ, but she'd approve of the ratio, that also gives a hint, you know, there might be some backstory here.[00:38:00]

Is there kind of a generational issue that has been passed out? Is there some family trauma? I love that there's, I think, oh, here's something. Promise. If in the first scene, you get the promise of more on various layers, that will always make me want to read more. And here we have the promise, first, of just an interesting character doing potentially bad things, which is interesting.

We have the promise of this trip. We're packing. you know, she's trying to find her black bikini. That's fun. So we have the promise of an exciting adventure. And then we have the promise of backstory with this grandma reference. Oh, there might be some like depth here as well. And so if I can have forward motion to a fun wedding location with a strong personality, who's making excuses for herself, who also has a traumatic backstory.

I mean, let's turn the page. You know, that's multiple fronts of exciting things that make me excited to keep going. 

David Gwyn: It's funny, having now talked to you for a little while, I get the [00:39:00] sense that you maybe don't think about it forward, but like you clearly put a ton of thought into, like, the th themes and the big ideas that a book is tackling or engaging with or grappling with.

Is that something you are looking for when you're reading submissions like this? Like, Hey, like what, what big ideas am I, am I seeing started or being laid here? Or is that something that you don't necessarily think about until you're kind of on the back end of the, of the book? 

Jenna Satterthwaite: I think about it as I go, I would say I don't need there to be big ideas to sign something.

I, you know, along with being a multi genre lover. I also love different levels of depth, like I love a good propulsive story where there's just kind of one enticing mystery and we're just gonna have some fun. Like I had a season maybe 15 years ago where I read so many cozy mysteries and I will not even tell you which ones they were because I can't remember because they were all the same.

And it's such a popcorn genre, but it really hit the spot for me. [00:40:00] And You know, I, I would say I'm not pretentious at all about books. Like, if you can entertain me, awesome! If you can entertain me and make me think, also awesome! Like, whatever, you know, that the writer is bringing to that story. I guess if they, if I want to keep reading, that's all that I ask.

Wow, that's not actually true. That's all that I ask. Sounds way too simplistic. But I, I guess do I love depth? Sure. Do I need there to be depth? No. You know, there are so many types of stories that we read in different moods. Sometimes we want that really like popcorn book that isn't gonna make us think about the world because the world sucks.

Or, you know, the comfort read that we've re read five times because there's this happy ending and we know it's coming. So I think I would love to put books out into the world through my authors, like, that fulfill all of those categories . Did that answer your question? I lost track of what the 

David Gwyn: question was.

No, it totally did. It totally [00:41:00] did. Yeah. And so, my last question about this submission is just, what are you hoping to see in the next like five to seven pages that would make you want to even continue reading from there?

Jenna Satterthwaite: If it is multi POV, and I don't remember if that was mentioned anywhere, or if it's not, I would be super curious to see the kind of distinction between the voices, like, if there's another point of view. I really want a different personality, and I want to feel that. That's something I'd look for.

I'd probably want to get to the wedding quickly. You know, you don't want to tease people for too long with we're going here, we're going here, we're going here, and you're a hundred pages in and we're still not there. So I'd kind of want to see like is the pacings taking us forward and fulfilling. the promises that you've set up and then making new promises that then you're going to fulfill and always kind of almost setting the trap for that next expectation that the reader has.

Oh, that was a dark metaphor. Anyway, leading them into the woods. It works.

David Gwyn: Especially in this genre. So my, my last question for you is just, where can people find [00:42:00] you? Where can people look you up? 

Jenna Satterthwaite: Oh my gosh, so many places. I would say I have such, like, a unique last name that if you just Google it, I'm the one you'll likely find. There is a nurse named Jenna Satterthwaite, I think, somewhere out there.

But I don't think there are many of us. So you can find me on Twitter. I post a lot. Sorry, X. Gosh darn. It's called X. 

David Gwyn: It's okay. Everyone does. They're like Twitter or X or whatever we're calling it. 

Jenna Satterthwaite: Anywho, I am on X a good bit because, you know, people have a lot to say about X and there are problems that I won't even get into.

But, there is a lovely writing community there and I have found beta readers who Like, clients have found me that way. I don't know. I, I find it to be a lovely place for writing types to go. So I'm on Twitter under Jenna Schmena. I'm on Instagram as jenna. satterthwaite. author. I'm I have a website, but don't go there.

It's stupid. Instead, go to my sub stack. If you google Jenna Satterthwaite's sub stack, you [00:43:00] will likely find it. And I publish posts once a week on Tuesdays. And I really try, I have a passion for, it's transparency. I do have to say there's a limit to how transparent you can be in publishing. There, you know, I want to preserve relationships with editors and publishing houses, so I can't spill all the tea all the time, but whatever is kind of appropriate and I'm able to say openly, I, I will.

Whether it's, you know, agent author communication, that's something I'm still drafting right now, but I've heard a lot of people's stories of how they've been burned by agents not answering their emails or like not reading their new book for eight months or like just these kinds of stories and people aren't sure if that's normal or not.

So I love writing about stuff like that. Like here's what I've seen as normal. This is what, you know, this is a timeline that I think is appropriate. This is a timeline that might be a red flag. Just kind of peeling the curtain back a little bit. Cause There's just a lot of confusion in publishing.

It's opaque [00:44:00] on purpose, from the publishing houses down, and I hate that. I'm a hater of opacity. I think it really puts it helps, I guess, the powerful preserve their power. That's my honest opinion. And it puts the newbies and the less powerful at a disadvantage, because they don't know what's going on.

So how are they supposed to advocate for what's fair, you know, for themselves and their career, if they don't even know? So yeah, I actually posted recently about how much I made as an author last year. I actually did paywall that one, because I don't want my boss to Google it for my day job and just be able to waltz in.

But I normally don't paywall, it's most, mostly free content. I'm eventually going to share how much I made as an agent this year, once my first year is wrapped up. You know, without revealing, like, confidential client information. But as a whole, like, this is what it looks like to agent Potentially for one year.

Yeah, I, I just like to kind of put stuff out there. I feel a tremendous sense of responsibility, like the more I learn and the more I know, the more I have a responsibility to share [00:45:00] that when possible with people who could benefit from having that knowledge. 

David Gwyn: Yeah. Yeah, that's great. I mean, what a, what a great way to end too.

So I will, people who are listening, I will link to your subsec so that they can get right to it. And Jenna, this was so much fun. I really, really enjoyed it. Thanks so much for taking the time to chat. 

Jenna Satterthwaite: It was a delight. Have me back next year and we'll resume the convo. This was super fun.

David Gwyn: Okay, so that's it. This was an entertaining and informative conversation with Jenna. I hope you learned a lot because I know I did. I feel like I walked away with a better understanding of how to develop an opening chapter. So if you're writing a book and querying, then the Thriller 101 community is perfect for you.

I'm looking for people who are invested, people who want to build something with me, give feedback, and grow something. That they will find beneficial and that we can pass on to the next writers after you find your agent. Head down the description, check that out.

Enrollment for the first cohort is happening soon, like in the next couple days. So be sure to sign up for the waitlist in the description for the [00:46:00] episode. I'm going to have to close it at some point, so make sure you're one of the first people who signs up once enrollment opens.

It will absolutely go up in price after this first cohort because I'm really trying to figure out how to shape and build this community and I need you to help me. So, Get locked in at the lowest price ever, help build the community that you want for your writing career, and all you need to do is go to the description right now and click the link

that keeps you in the know. All right, I'll see you next week.