How to Develop Characters and Themes with Author Aaron Philip Clark

Download the 50 editing mistakes authors make as shared by an editor for Lake Union Publishing!

In this episode, Aaron Philip Clark shares invaluable writing tips on crafting compelling characters, weaving meaningful themes into your stories, and making your thrillers stand out in today’s market.

If you’re an aspiring or experienced author looking for actionable advice on character development, plot construction, and building deeper layers into your writing, this episode is for you. 

In this episode, we talk about:

• How to incorporate meaningful themes into your thrillers and mysteries to create stories that resonate with readers on a deeper level.
• Actionable advice for developing rich, multi-dimensional characters who feel authentic and drive your story forward.
• Insights into Aaron Philip Clark’s writing process and career journey, including lessons he’s learned about storytelling and publishing.

Here's the episode with Carla Conti
Find out more about Aaron HERE

Tweet me @DavidRGwyn

Transcript

Aaron Philip Clark

Aaron Philip Clark: [00:00:00] Because plot is cool, but you know, it's, it's really just like, it gets us from point A to B, you know it's more about like what happens during that time period to the characters. How did they change? Because if there's no change or growth, or let's say that they decide not to change, but everybody else has to bend to their will, you know, where's the conflict?

David Gwyn: how to take your storytelling beyond plot. To tackle bigger themes or how to infuse your characters, the depth that resonates. And this episode is for you. Aaron, Phillip Clark is going to share his approach to writing stories that aren't just thrilling, but also meaningful. You'll learn how to remix familiar, plots into something fresh and unique to create vivid and authentic settings and master the art of collaboration, which I found really fascinating. Stick around because this conversation is going to challenge how you think about your own writing and you'll walk away with some actionable strategies to elevate your craft. I'm David Gwyn, a writer navigating the world of traditional publishing during the second [00:01:00] season of the thriller one-on-one podcast. 

We're going to continue our focus on building the skills necessary to write the kinds of thrillers that land you and agent and readers.

 All throughout this season, I'll be sharing some of my own insights while also talking to agents authors and other publishing professionals about the best way to write a novel. 

If you want the experts secrets, thriller 1 0 1 is where you're going to find them.

Last time on the podcast. I talked to Carla. Conti about her new, true crime memoir, chained birds.

Carla Conti: It was maybe easier for me to write the journalism parts because that's what I used to do. And then I had to really examine how was I feeling about this moment when this happened.

And then I have a lot of documentation about exactly how I felt about certain things, so I, just tried to go back and put it all together and make it as realistic as it was as I was experiencing it. 

David Gwyn: If you missed that episode, I linked it down in the [00:02:00] description. You can check that out.

Aaron, Phillip Clark is a native of Los Angeles, California. He's a novelist screenwriter, educator, and author of 

the international thriller writers award nominated. Detective Trevor Finnegan series Clark teaches creative writing at UCLA extension and the accomplice Clark's collaboration with rapper and entertainment. 

Mogul Curtis 50 cent Jackson was published by Amistad and imprint of Harper Collins in September of 2024. All right, let's get into the interview.

So Aaron, thanks so much for being here. I really appreciate you taking the time to chat.

Aaron Philip Clark: Thank you for having me.

David Gwyn: So yeah, yeah. Aaron, you were on the show. I think it was like about a year ago, maybe a little bit over a year ago. And we had a really great conversation about action scenes, which is so useful.

So if you're listening to this and you wanna hear more with Aaron, I'll, I'll link to that. Cause it was really, really beneficial for, for us writers in the kind of thriller suspense, mystery genre, crime genre, like it's like a masterclass. So really, really happy to have you back and chat with us again.

Aaron Philip Clark: happy to be here.

David Gwyn: So I want to start with first your, your project here, the science of [00:03:00] Paul, which came out a little while ago. But I want you to share a little bit for people who are listening.

Aaron Philip Clark: Sure. So the science of Paul was my thesis book and and grad school. And so it really started as a short story. At the time I was taking this course called literature literature and evil. And it was about studying books in which you had a protagonist who veered into a very dark area in terms of kind of psychology or their worldview. And when I was taking that course, we had like a little project and I said, you know, write a very short story, that explore some of the concepts that we, that we had been discussing. And so I said, okay, I had this idea of having this ex con and that's really what kind of birth did. I said, ex con who has done something horrible, not on purpose, but really because of immaturity and all these other circumstances that were kind of going on in his life.

And then he's [00:04:00] essentially come up with this idea that he doesn't work well in society that he is truly other and he can't really function very well. And so he ultimately receives a letter from a family friend from his grandfather's friend. And his grandfather has this farm in North Carolina and his the letter basically says your grandfather has passed away. And that you know, you need to come and take care of this situation, this property, everything. And so the book opens with him digging the grave for his grandfather and burying him on the land, and then he returns to Philadelphia and he gets this idea of why can't I just live there, you know, on this land.

And so he begins to start taking these steps to return there where he thinks he'll be happy and we'll find that. that solitude that he's looking for. So he leaves the woman that he's living with. And he finds himself with a little bit of [00:05:00] money and a knapsack and he sets out to get to this farm in North Carolina. And along the way he encounters this petty thug kind of, you know, small time criminal. and who has his hands in a bunch of stuff and needing more money decides to help him out. And then ultimately when this guy ends up murdered, he's implicated in it and can't escape the city of

Philadelphia.

So the book is very much about him trying to escape the clutches of the past and his, and really his past mistakes. And having to finally have to confront them. And in doing so He unravels the mystery of who killed this guy who no one really cares about. But He takes many paths. And I like him because he's not a detective. He's just an ex con, just a regular dude,

you know, who's trying to figure things out. And so you know, he goes all over the city of Philadelphia and encounters all these different types of, of folks and characters. It goes to the campus of UPenn. [00:06:00] you know, the investigation leaves them all all over.

And he ultimately finds himself pinned between the cop who actually arrested him and put him in jail in the first place. And this very volatile gangster who was also implicated in the crime and wants to prove that he had nothing to do with it. And so Paul Little, who's the main character, who's the ex con, is stuck between both of these characters.

He's kind of pinned there and he has to find a way out. So that all he could do is get to get to the land that's waiting for him. And so you know, it's very noir. Like I, at the time I had sent it out to agents you know, I put words like existential in my query letter. And you know, later, later this agent came up to me, he was at a conference and remembered me and said, I read your query and he said, you know, and I ultimately read, he read the science of Poland and he said, he said, man. You know, that was a really good book. And I said, Oh, I said, well, what happened? You know what? And he said, well, I remember you [00:07:00] put existential, you know, in your query letter, and if you want to sell something, you probably don't want to put existential in the query letter, you know? and so I said, Oh, well that probably, that's probably what did it, you know?

But he was like, he said, no, it was a traditional, you know, noir. He's like, it's plenty of, you know, small press, the press that would, you know, That would have published that, you know, but ultimately I went with New Pole Press at the time was run John Bassoff started it

out of Colorado and John Bassoff

has written, I don't know, like 10 books now, but you know, he wrote me and he said, man, I love this.

You know, he said, and at the time he was publishing like horror and he was from a little bit of everything. And he's like, I,

you know, this will be a little different, you know, than the books

that we have. But he said, you know, I would love to publish it. And he said, I can give you an advance of 200. And I'd say, Hey, I'll take it. You know,

David Gwyn: You got for one dinner in LA, right?

Aaron Philip Clark: that's about it, man. You know, 

David Gwyn: That's very funny. So let's, let's talk about your, your other big news. You've got The Accomplice out with with Curtis 50 [00:08:00] Cent Jackson. That came out like a couple days ago. Can you tell us what that book's about?

Aaron Philip Clark: sure. So that book is a, it's a collaboration between me and, and Curtis and Curtis kind of, came to me with this idea. And we did a lot of brainstorming, a lot of collaboration between us. And you know, originally we were thinking, Hey, should we set this in LA, New York?

And we kind of felt like it was overdone, you know, the big city high story, we've seen it so much. So at the time Curtis was living in Texas. And so the idea was like, well, why don't we take this and make this. you know, set this in a place that he's familiar with and a place that I was familiar with too.

I have family there and I thought it would be pretty refreshing to do something you know, high story, crime story in Texas, but have the character come from the big city. And so the main character Nia, who is a, ultimately a Texas ranger, but she's [00:09:00] originally from New York. And so it's a little bit of that kind of fish out of water, but it's like Houston becomes her, very much her adopted place.

And she has this affinity for it, you know, she, she really loves it. And you know, as, as her role as a Texas ranger, she works on a unit that is taking on big criminals throughout Texas. And then, and it is set in 2004. And during this time Texas was having this whole kind of spree of bank robberies. And so some of these guys were hitting two, three banks a day, just driving across the state because Texas is huge. So you could

jump counties, you know, and they can't communicate well with each other. And so, you know, the Rangers are able to go wherever in the state. And so there was no issues with jurisdiction.

So, you know, they were trying to, to get a handle on some of these robberies. And so That's where the idea kind of came from. And so Nia ultimately goes up against this kind of brilliant thief, who was a Vietnam veteran kind of turned thief, but [00:10:00] he doesn't steal in the sense and he doesn't pull heist in the sense of just knocking over a bank, right? Instead, what he's doing, he's going after very specific targets and very specific people to blackmail them and to ultimately be able to get money that way. So it's like, if you have

secrets or you've hidden something, you know, maybe it is in a bank vault, but he'll find it. And then he's going to hang it over your head until he gets what he wants.

As the book progresses, we learned that it's much bigger than that. And that the people who are kind of bankrolling him and allowing him to do this have much bigger plans just in terms of the way that they want to impact the world. And the people that are being targeted are people who have a lot of influence, whether it's political or it's just having money. And that by blackmailing them, that this organization is able to do what they want to do, which

David Gwyn: Yeah.

Aaron Philip Clark: Won't say is nefarious. It depends how you look at it,[00:11:00]

you know, but they essentially are, see themselves as a check against people who have kind of out of control power people who are headed 

David Gwyn: Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron Philip Clark: it's this idea that if we can prevent or this organization could somehow prevent, you know. the next dictator or someone from, you know, assuming power and throwing, they're all about balance and essentially throwing the world out of balance. Then that's what they're kind of against. And Desmond, who was the thief, doesn't really care about all that. You know, he's doing it for other reasons you know, which are later explored in the book. But in the beginning, he doesn't, he doesn't care. He's kind of like, Hey, I'm doing this. I'm getting paid and this is how I'm going to be able to keep my, my family safe and, [00:12:00] and, and, you know survive. And he's soon learns that there's limitations to that.

David Gwyn: Yeah, it's so cool. It's I gotta ask you this, Aaron. So I talked to a lot of authors on here and you know, through the community that I'm working on and everything. And you're 1 of the few authors that I talked to that when I ask about your book, you, you use the plot But you almost always touch on like a thematic piece within, within the story.

And a lot of authors, I feel like they pitch their plot, which I think, you know, when we think of like thrillers, crime, fiction, you know, the suspense, a lot of it is plot. Like people usually pick up a book for plot, at least plot first. I think it's so interesting. You seem to come at it from a different angle, or at the very least, you bring in that thematic angle.

Is that just the way you think about stories? Or are you conscious of that?

Aaron Philip Clark: Well, I would say it's how I kind of approach story. You know, I think that, There's a few plots out there. Now they get remixed, they get, you know, every [00:13:00] once in a while refreshing to be like, Oh my gosh, we've never seen this before. No, you've seen it. It's just that it's remixed. It's a little fresher. But most of the time, especially when we're talking about crime fiction, I mean, we have a handful of like tried and true plots, you know what

I mean?

And that's it, you know? And with this book, it was kind of like, okay, a heist story. Well, what can we do to freshen that up? And. Especially considering the state of the world today, the state of 

David Gwyn: Yeah.

Aaron Philip Clark: and get away with, you know, and that's what I was interested in, you know, about exploring that and if there, if, and how we are able to individuals who seek that level of power, you know, in check because, you know, And maybe it's a cynical viewpoint, but it does exist in the accomplice.

But the idea that as as a populace were [00:14:00] so easily swayed by incredibly superficial things that maybe we're not as savvy, maybe we're not as great critical thinkers as we believe we are, which means that there has to be you know, if you want to call it a shadow organization, and this book is this idea that, you know, maybe they, they believe they know better than us.

And, you know, without them we would kind of be screwed, you know what I mean?

But those are kind of themes. Those are questions, if anything, that I'm, that, you know, I'm asking and, when I was working with, With Curtis, it was this idea. We had this discussion and he sent me information about how,, today, Wall Street, you know, essentially was funded with the transatlantic slave money and that's how it came about, you know what I mean?

Like, they literally were selling people on Wall Street. It was one of the biggest marketplaces. And so this idea that people were, you know, even to this [00:15:00] day, you know, that is the financial mecca, right? But we forget how it came about, 

you 

David Gwyn: It was like echoes, right? Those like, they're kind of like resonance, 

Aaron Philip Clark: exactly, you know? And so I wanted to explore those echoes.

I wanted to dig into that. So, you know, even within the book, there's mention of main streets in these small towns and what used to happen on these main streets.

You know what I mean? And, and, this idea, especially it being Texas, that every small town has these secrets and these through lines to the past that are ugly.

And so, you know, Nia is confronting that, Nia is in the book is the first black female Texas Ranger. And on top of that. She's a lesbian living in Texas

in 2004, you know, and it has this relationship with a sitting judge that they have to keep secret, to protect both of their jobs.

 So she's having to contend with that as well.

David Gwyn: Yeah, very cool. 

Okay. I want to pause here for just a second [00:16:00] to highlight something. Aaron said that I think is really crucial for every writer and that's the power of themes. 

Aaron, didn't just write a heist story. He layered in questions about power identity and societal echoes these deeper threads are, what transform a story from just entertaining to unforgettable. Here's my challenge to you. Look at your own work in progress. And ask yourself. 

What's the bigger question. Your story is exploring. What themes are you weaving into your plot? Think about how you can add depth to your story by tying your character struggles to larger social or personal issues. If you're not sure where to start. Take a second and just write down what matters to you. 

What keeps you up at night? What makes you angry or how do you see the world differently maybe than somebody else, then find a way to thread that into your story. In the next part of the interview, Aaron's going to give us a glimpse into the collaborative process, which I found really interesting. I mean, he's going to show how working with others can sharpen your focus and enhance your craft. And that's [00:17:00] something we can all benefit from. So let's get back to the interview.

So I do want to dig in here and talk about the collaborative piece kind of generally speaking, like, holistically here. I'm so curious about this because when I think about fiction writing, I'm like, yeah, like, I'm already getting into a character's voice or mind or however, however we think about it.

But you're, you've got this kind of added wrinkle in that you're collaborating with somebody, you're working on something together, and then you're working on a voice together that has almost like two people in this one character's head. And so I'm really dying to know, just like, how do you, how did you go about capturing the voices of your, your characters through a collaborative process?

Aaron Philip Clark: Sure. So I think with this project, it was a little different because Curtis had in mind who, who these characters were.

And, you know, even to the point where which actors would potentially play them,[00:18:00]

you know in the adaptation. And so that helped a lot because going into it, I kind of knew what Nia looked like because he had told me like, Hey, this is who is interested in

taking on this, this role.

So I, so as I wrote, I kind of had that in my head of this character and how they deliver or this part of this actor and how they deliver. their lines and the sort of range that they have. And so that helped a great deal. I think even, even with that, like even characters who perhaps did, who, you know, weren't necessarily cast yet, you know, like the character of Desmond you know, it was very much invented.

And so with that, you know, as I was writing, I was like, this guy feels like Wesley Snipes, you know what I mean? I'm a huge Wesley Snipes fan. So I was like, man, this is Wesley. I was

like, this is, this is Wesley could knock this out the park. So as I was writing, you know some of the dialogue, you know, I, I'm kind of filter through how, [00:19:00] you know, Wesley might deliver it, you know, so going back and watching those films.

You know those early, like, Blade, and then, you know, what, Passenger 57, you know, and some of the, the, you know, and the Fugitive sequel, you know, so I was like, this is, you know, this is how Wesley would potentially deliver these lines. So, that was my kind of my process. I didn't focus so much on my voice or like, Oh, how, you know, 50 might what the, you know, if he, if he was, you know, delivering this line or writing this line, how he might write it, you know, it was more like, okay, well, how am I, how would these characters potentially deliver it?

And that's what I was able to focus on. And so it was in a way, it was, it was easy to do because if I know, Hey, this thing is going to end up being adapted, you know what I mean? I approached it not so much as, Hey, I'm writing a book, but I allowed myself to have more of a cinematic view.

David Gwyn: Yeah, I was going to say, like, [00:20:00] almost like a director as opposed to a writer in that sense.

Aaron Philip Clark: Yeah. And I had to

put that hat on and

think, okay, well, cinematically, how would this, how would this play out? And, and that helped that helped a lot, you know, I

must say it was, it was a easy. Collaboration, you know, because I and also because I like I know the world's 50 creates like I know power, I know some of the themes and things that are explored there.

And so to try and keep it in line with that, because in my mind, I'm thinking, well, okay, let's say this was a shared universe, with the power characters, and that helped a lot because

I was like, okay. Okay. Like I know that world. So let me try and write within that share that same kind of scope.

David Gwyn: yeah, that's very cool. And so it's funny, I keep listening to this thinking about like, the only really experience I have is writing on my own kind of like the traditional solo authoring process. And so I keep thinking, I'm like, I wonder how different it is. And it's, it sounds like, you know, you're [00:21:00] doing that high level work together and then you're like digging into your strengths on both on either side, like, right.

Like he's, he's delivering some vision. you're shaping some pieces here and there. And it seems like this kind of really, like you mentioned, like a solid, like seamless collaborative experience. And so does it feel like like you're flexing the same writing muscle that you normally do? Or does it feel different because of the collaborative piece beforehand?

Yeah. Yeah. 

Aaron Philip Clark: because, if it's just me writing, all of that, I have to come up with on my own, you know, so it takes me, you know, sometimes two, three months as I kind of just. you know, write in a notebook and think, okay the background of this character? Okay, where do they come from?

I still have to do that, but it's different when you're collaborating because at least some of that has been done for you. So I have to focus more, and it allows me to be able to focus more on the details. So if I know, okay, hey, it's going to be a female law enforcement, you know, it's set, [00:22:00] it's set in Texas. then don't have to think about that. I don't have, I'm not the one making those decisions. So all I have to do is spend my time researching what was going on during that time period that the story is set. Research everything about the city. So I had schematics of Houston. So that I understood, you know, essentially how it was set up.

You know, I knew where the banks were, the big branches and where most of the money, you know, the big money is kept. And it allowed, and then also how long it takes to get places, you know what I mean? So it was like, you know, all these little counties and stuff. So I had to think, okay, well, You know, if Desmond's running from, from here to there, you know, how long is it really going to take him, you know, in moderate traffic to get somewhere? You know, there's rest areas in the South for a reason, it's long, you know what I mean? So you have, you [00:23:00] know, people stop, they gotta,, use the bathroom, all this stuff. So. I couldn't write it as if it was LA and I'm going from,, Pasadena to Santa Monica, you know what I mean?

Like that's not what it is. So it's a whole different, a whole different thing. And, you know, and if you're on these small highways, it's about two lanes. I had to, you know, I had to kind of incorporate that so that it maintained the flavor. you know of Texas. I wanted to feel I wanted readers have a vicarious experience, feel like they were dropped, 

Right in the middle of Houston.

And then all this is going on.

David Gwyn: Yeah, that's cool. That's very cool. And so I know you're, I'm imagining you're working on your own projects on the side too. You're doing some of your own solo stuff. So. Was there any difficulty in like kind of disentangling yourself from these other voices, these other stories, or does it feel kind of like the same way you would if you were working on your own project and you're, you know, moving from one thing to the next?

Aaron Philip Clark: That's a good question. So it's a different, it's a different mindset. And for me to get back to, [00:24:00] you know, Aaron Philip Clark book it's different, you know what I mean? Things that I might include in, the accomplice or choices that I make may not necessarily be the choices I would make or focus on for if it was my book, which sometimes my books are a little bit quieter maybe not as much of an event book, you know what I mean?

And so getting back to that sometimes it's hard. I mean, I have a, I have a playlist that I will listen to that kind of gets me back into that mindset, you know, but I'm working on another collaboration now, which you know, that voice is, is Completely different from how I write, you know, so really it's a game of mimicking now as I, I work with the author of trying to keep, keep the same flavor, 

but also [00:25:00] have opportunities in there where, I think if anything, people say I'm known for character development.

And so being able to do that for other folks who may struggle there. and who may have, you know, this, this plot, right? They got the plot down. This is what happens. And, you know, most people you talk to, like, when I talk to my students, you know, I say, Oh, what, you know, what's going on?

What's this about? And they always default there, right? Like, you know, this is what it's about. This was going to happen. And they get so excited. And then if I ask them sometimes, Where's your main character from? How do they speak? What has impacted their diction? You know, especially if they're writing about police officers.

Well, a lot of times officers who have seen horrific things, it actually pops up in their speech pattern or they do things like double blink. It's a sign of PTSD. So I asked them those things, ask them, well, how do they make it through the world? Remove the badge. right? Remove all of that. How are they just functioning if they [00:26:00] go to the grocery store and need a need to buy milk? You know how are, how are they able to do that? And so when I asked those, those kind of probing questions, you know hopefully it'll spark in them opportunity to think deeper. Because plot is cool, but you know, it's, it's really just like, it gets us from point A to B, you know it's more about like what happens during that time period to the characters. How did they change? Because if there's no change or growth, or let's say that they decide not to change, but everybody else has to bend to their will, you know, where's the conflict? And so that's what I try and get them , to think about. And so when, when I'm writing, that's natural for me, but if I'm taking on someone else's project or I'm working with someone it might not be natural for them. And so we have to find a way to, to get there.

David Gwyn: Man, I really needed this. It's funny, I'm at a place in the, you know, the story I'm working on now, and I'm like, Dang, I gotta go back and start [00:27:00] thinking about, cause I, you know, I do, I think a lot of, a lot of writers in this genre get caught up in the plot. And I'm, I'm guilty of that. Like, I'm like, okay, I gotta make sure there's things that are connecting here and there, but.

I think, you know, listening to you, I'm like, now thinking like, all right, I gotta go back and do a whole new edit where I 

Aaron Philip Clark: Oh, 

David Gwyn: think about, just think about like, who, who is this character and like, what is the like, kind of how are they feeling? What is the natural progression of how they would move through the world?

Which I think is so important and something that, you know, if you're listening to this, Hopefully you write like Aaron Phillip Clark, but not like me, but if you are anything like me, you know, this is probably a wake up call to be like, Hey, I had to go back to these characters and take another pass on like who they are and how they're, I love that like idea of like how they're moving through this which I think is such a cool thing.

And so it feels like a great writing exercise to have some of these collaborations. Like, how does it, how do you feel like, do you feel like it's improved your writing? Or do you feel like you're just now at a place in your writing where you're, you know, able to, to reach out and grab this and handle a project like this, or do you come back to your own writing?

You're like, dang, I'm like, [00:28:00] I'm better than I was before.

Aaron Philip Clark: Well, I think it's mixed. I think in terms of editing, it's made me a much sharper editor.

And that especially when it's like, you know, self editing. You know, I can, I can set a book aside and I can come back and be like, all right, I know exactly how to fix this. and I think that's from the collaboration period, you know, where I'm either given a draft and I can look at it and quickly, assess what issues may be there. And I very quickly can know what to chop. And that's when I go into almost like editor mode and like, or producer mode, like the producer, you know, some of that's going to end up on the cutting room floor and that's okay. You know what I mean? If it makes a sharper, a sharper book, then that's what we need to do.

If you have, I don't know, 30 characters. Do we need 30? You know, [00:29:00] some of them, some of them got to go, you know, unless you have a sweeping scene where they just, you know, all going to be taken out at one time, you know, but like, we don't need 30, you know what I mean? And so that it's become helpful in that sense that, you know, I can, I can, I can quickly look at my old work and be like, okay, like I can cut this, I can cut that. I can make this sharper. I have noticed when I'm doing collaborations I'm getting better in the sense of outlining. Because

oftentimes I don't have a lot, I don't have a lot of time. So with my own book, sometimes I, you know, it's a stroll. You know what I mean? Like sometimes I'm just kind of like, oh, I'll write, you know, three, four chapters.

Then I'll go outline and, you know, maybe I'll take a week outlining. Then I'll hop back in.

David Gwyn: Yeah.

Aaron Philip Clark: I can't really do that. You know,

When you collaborate, you know, there's a whole lot of stuff moving parts and people were expecting it. And there's things that that, you know, I mean, it's, you know, think about [00:30:00] an industry way is I P and I P got to go places.

So, you know, like, it's a little bit different. So it really, like, makes me do a lot of the work in advance. to sit down and really outline and come up with something. Now it's organic. The outline is organic. It changes, you know, and as I'm writing, I'm like, actually, I didn't need these two scenes, you know, or something like that, or I need to expand, but it definitely accelerates the, the, the process which is good.

I mean, I think, you know the project that I just finished on my own, or that's mine I was able to do. you know, right after having worked on The Accomplice, I jumped into that. And know, I was able to kind of write it a lot faster. I mean, obviously these are characters that I know, but, you know, I was able to not spend a lot of time meandering because I was kind of like, oh no, I know how this is going to go.

And so that, that, that's a benefit. But there's still some books where I'm like, you know, I mean, what I'm working on [00:31:00] now it's tricky. You know because it's it has an intimate national flavor to it. But it's a character who essentially has escaped to a small island on the coast of Africa. and was part of the civil rights movement. And unlike his comrades, he didn't get captured. He made it out, but he has to go back to the States, sneak back in when he gets word of his daughter's murder. And it may be connected to some of his activity that he, he. things that he was doing as part of the movement.

You know, and he was kind of very loosely based on the Black Panthers, but he was part of this organization that the police had targeted and FBI had targeted. So, you know, it's, it's, that's one of those books where it's a lot of research. It's a lot of getting the voice, right. It's a lot of getting the time period, right.

You know, it's a lot that I have to do. So that's more of a, of a stroll, but as I'm, as I'm working on the outline. [00:32:00] you know, instead of just writing stuff out and saying, Hey, maybe this will work. Think having worked on these other collaborations, I know very quickly, like, that's not gonna work. You could do that, but you're probably gonna waste a week.

You know what I mean? In the back of my head, like I'm thinking like, that could be a fun exercise. You might get some really cool pages out of that. but you're going to end up getting rid of that

David Gwyn: Right. You're going to 

Aaron Philip Clark: You already know, you know what I mean? So it's like, I don't waste that kind of, that kind of time anymore.

I just kind of have another notebook and I'll jot it off to the

side of like I've seen, and then maybe who knows if it's a

book too, or something like that. I can, I can work with, you

David Gwyn: held you longer than we were going to talk, but I, I, I'm enjoying this so much that I'm, I'm going to just say sorry. My first, my first one, like I said, I got two more. My first one is so I had a, Get rich or die trying CD when I was growing up.

So I gotta know, were you starstruck at all? Like what was it like, like that kind of like first, either when you heard or when you [00:33:00] started collaborating, like, was there any moment like that or like, were you just like keeping it cool the whole time?

Aaron Philip Clark: know, that's a good question. I think like, you know, it's it's interesting because, If I had met 50 as a, as with the fan hat on, you know what I'm saying?

Because we all, you know, that came out in, in when I was in college, so, you know what I mean, like. We burned that CD out, you know what I mean? So it was like, you know, so it was one of those things where, and I met him like with that, like just straight as a hip hop fan, it would

have been different.

But you know, it's, it's one thing when you're meeting somebody and you're like, Hey, you know, we got to talk business. Then the business side of me. overpowers the, the the fan side, but Yeah, no, 

David Gwyn: and he came to your realm right like he came into the writing world So like I imagine that probably felt like you had some [00:34:00] authority there, too

Aaron Philip Clark: yeah, you know, it's like, I listened and I understood, what he was interested in doing. And I think that once we got to talking about, you know, heist stories, Once we got to talking about heat, you know, then it was almost as like talking to like one of the homies about like, you know, a movie, you know what I

mean?

Or like, you know, or just kind of like having that kind of conversation. So it was like, for that first moment, I was like, like, Oh man, like, this is real, you know what I mean? But then it was like, you know, like 50s, very charismatic. And, and when you talk to them, it's like, just talking to like a friend, you don't, you

forget all of that.

You know what I mean? Especially if it's like, we're talking about, one of my favorite movies heat. And you know, one of the things we were saying, and I had told him, I said, man, it's so hard to move money. Like people don't really understand this. You know what I mean? Like we watch these movies. And it's like, you know, moving money. [00:35:00] I mean, you're talking about like, I mean, these are

bricks, 

David Gwyn: paperwork. You gotta wait, 

Aaron Philip Clark: well, like it's crazy. Like

if you get, even if you got it out of the vault successfully. Okay. And you're talking about bricks on bricks. that you have to move unless that you do have a big crew. Like I, like we were saying with this book, I didn't want a big crew because that's just extra.

You know what I

mean? And you, and then you already know how it was going to go where you might have, you know, idiots on the crew. And then you got to deal with that. And like writing that to me was not interesting. I wanted to see how far one man could get.

David Gwyn: Mm hmm.

Aaron Philip Clark: Right? Like how, how, how successful could one man be in a heist and what would he have to steal to not get caught, right?

Or make it more difficult to get caught. Yeah. You have like the people who dressed up in the one, you know, the gentleman bank robber who walks in and, you know, politely asked for the money, you know what I mean? And he gets it and then takes off.

You know, but over time, [00:36:00] if he keeps doing that, he's going to get caught.

But I wanted someone that was a little bit more savvy. Right. And so that was what we were talking about. Cause we were staying in heat. Love the shootout scene, you know what I mean? But that was based on the North Hollywood, bank robbery, I believe. Right. I think that came first. And then, and so , if you got duffel bags of money and, and assault weapons, Man, you got, that's some serious weight and you have vests on. You're not running, you're not running through anything, you know, like, are you kidding me? You got like 80, 90 pounds on your shoulder and then you add the assault. What? Come on. 

Like, no. So that, like, that was one of the things that, you know, we were like wanting to, to shy away from, 

, and it was a really good constraint because it forced me to have to think deeper in terms of what. could be stolen and the most valuable currency is information, you know, and then, cause you could do whatever you want. It's [00:37:00] not about taking the actual item, something tangible. If you, if you have something over somebody, you can get them to do anything. That could be more valuable than money.

David Gwyn: Very cool. So my last question for you is just, just where can people find you? Where can people look you up?

Aaron Philip Clark: Sure. So my website is AaronPhilipClark. com. I am on social media and my handle for Instagram and for x. formerly known as Twitter is at real APC books. And well, I don't know how long I'll be on X, you know, I might be counting the days, but you know, you can find me on Instagram. You can also find me on, on Facebook. You know, if you just type in Aaron Philip Clark, you know it'll pop up author Aaron Phil Clark. So I am there. Most people truthfully reach out through my website. And just do like a contact form thing. So I try to answer those if I do get those [00:38:00] messages. It does take a while because I get a lot of, you know, unfortunately I get a lot of spam type stuff,

you know, Oh, I get, you know, even with the blockers, I still get weird stuff.

In fact, the email that I originally got about the 50 project, I thought was spam.

Because it came directly from 50s agents. And I didn't believe it at first. I was like, what is this? So I had asked my, my agent at the time, I said, can you please look into this? I said, I don't know, this is legit, you know, and, amazing. you know, she made the call and she was, Oh no, it's not. It's legit. So I was like, Oh, okay. I said, well, let's, you know, cause I was like this kid,

I thought, you know, I said, someone's having, having a go, like they're over here, you know,

David Gwyn: so funny.

Aaron Philip Clark: sending me these, these messages.

David Gwyn: I can just imagine like there's this alternate world where you're like, oh, screw this. Delete, delete, delete.

Aaron Philip Clark: Yeah, because it's like, and you know, you do a quick Google search and like, okay, but that [00:39:00] still doesn't prove that it

like actually is legit. Like someone could have looked at that and didn't, you know, so I, I was kind of like, eh, this might be real, you know, it was 50 50. It was a coin toss. Cause I was like, this is either legit or, you know, this is someone messing around,

but it ended up, you know, being, being legit.

And after that initial email, everything will, you know,

David Gwyn: Yeah, that's awesome. All right. Well, Aaron, I, I, I apologize for holding you later than, than we had anticipated, but I, like I said, it's, it's awesome talking to you. 

I really appreciate you hanging out and chatting with us

Aaron Philip Clark: man, it's always a pleasure. I always enjoy our conversations and uh, you know hopefully we can do it again.

David Gwyn: Okay. And that's it. 

So today we learned how Aaron Philip Clark approaches storytelling from a thematic perspective and how do weave deeper questions into familiar plots to keep them fresh? He shared how authentic research helps bring a setting to life and why understanding your character is beyond just their typical roles is essential for creating memorable stories.

If you ready to push your writing to the next level, start [00:40:00] by embracing these lessons that we learned from Aaron, dive deep into your characters, inner lives, ground your stories, and he's detailed settings. 

Like he does. And don't be afraid to explore bigger themes, things that may challenge you as a writer or challenge your readers. Thanks for hanging out with me. I hope you enjoyed this episode. If you did make sure you share it and I will see you next week.