Thriller 101
A podcast for readers and writers of thriller, mystery, suspense, and crime fiction.
Thriller 101
Literary Agent Jessica Berg Shares How to Catch an Agent's Eye
Storyteller's Society Waitlist
Learn more about Jessica Berg
Listen to Daria White Osah's Episode
Want to write a thriller that stands out in today’s crowded market?
In this episode, literary agent Jessica Berg shares expert insights into what makes a manuscript irresistible to agents and publishers.
We dive into essential thriller writing techniques, including...
- The power of a strong character voice
- The importance of genre mashups
- How to balance plot, tension, and stakes.
If you’re looking for writing tips, querying advice, or an insider’s perspective on how to write a gripping thriller, this is a literary agent interview you won’t want to miss!
We cover...
- How a compelling character voice can make or break your manuscript – and why agents will forgive other flaws if your character shines.
- Why genre mashups are the future of thriller writing – and how blending suspense with horror, mystery, or humor can make your book more marketable.
- What agents really look for in a query and full manuscript – plus, the biggest mistakes authors make when pitching their books.
Jessica Berg
Jessica Berg: [00:00:00] So I really enjoy character driven narrative. Like, it still has to have plot but I love something that feels morally complex. We've got a really voicey character, and I always love anything that straddles a genre. You know, I think gone are the days where it's thriller and it's thriller and there's nothing else.
David Gwyn: Are you looking for the kinds of agent insights that will change the way you query? If you want to refine your opening pages so that agents are dying to read more, then you're going to love today's episode. I'm David Gwyn, a writer navigating the world of traditional publishing. During the second season of the Thriller 101 podcast, we're going to continue our focus on building the skills necessary to write the kinds of thrillers that land you an agent and readers.
During this season, I'll be sharing some of my own insights while also talking to agents, authors, and other publishing professionals about the best way to write a novel. If you want the expert secrets, Thriller 101 is where you're going to find them.
Last week on the podcast, I shared a peek inside the Storytellers Society with a great tip on how to prioritize your writing from Daria White Osa.
Daria White Osah: But I also [00:01:00] know that for a lot of us, time is an issue, even though you have the best intentions. It's like time keeps slipping away is always something. And if you're like me, you just have this book that just doesn't go away. It nags at you in a good way.
David Gwyn: If you haven't heard that episode, you can head down into the description and check that out.
Today's episode is with Jessica Berg. She's a literary agent, author, and founder of Rosecliff Literary. She's passionate about championing character driven stories with emotional depth and unforgettable stakes, elevating unique voices that resonate long after the final page.
A multi nominated writer, an MFA graduate from Spaulding University,
Jessica offers developmental feedback for Writer's Digest. Represented by Amy Collins of Talcott Notch, she combines expertise, enthusiasm, and heart to guide authors through the publishing journey.
Jessica and I are going to look at a submission to the Thriller 101 podcast. And she's going to explain why she really enjoyed it.
Let's get into the interview.
Jessica, it's great [00:02:00] to meet you. And thanks so much for being on the thriller one on one podcast.
Jessica Berg: happy to be here. It's my pleasure. Thank you.
David Gwyn: Yeah. So we're going to get to talk about a submission here in a little bit, but before we do Kind of curious about your background as an agent. So can you tell us a little bit about why you decided to become an agent?
Jessica Berg: Yeah, definitely. So, I always have felt like I'm a connector, right? Like, I love being that person who says, Oh, you have to meet this person or you have to read this book. So, becoming an agent has really allowed me to do that on a larger scale. I get to connect to editors and authors, auditors and editors.
It really leans into my love of story, the way I think story changes the world or can change the world. And I really think that there's something exhilarating about finding that project that feels like magic and then being able to help it shine. Like, there are literally days where I sit here and I'm like, this is my job.
Like, I cannot believe this is my job.
David Gwyn: Yeah, that's very cool. I, I feel like I've never heard that before or really thought about that before as agents, as connectors, but I think that's a great [00:03:00] way of thinking about them. especially now, I feel like there's so many roots through publishing and, and more than, than ever before. And thinking about an agent gets you that introduction to an editor that you wouldn't normally have, I think is a good way of thinking about it. Have you, have you always been interested in the publishing world and like, have you always been kind of a bookish kid or is this newer?
Jessica Berg: Oh, no, definitely bookish kid. I have an MFA. I spent 10 years as a developmental editor, you know, big reader my whole life. It probably will not shock a lot of people when I say I was allowed 1 hour of PBS television a week. So, like, books were all, you know, growing up, like, it was books or nothing. So I've always been obsessed with storytelling, libraries, buying too many books at thrift stores.
Like, it took me a while to figure out publishing is where I wanted to be because I'm also an author. Right. And so, you know, we come into this with this massive umbrella of all these skill sets, and it took me a little bit of time to say, Oh, actually, like, this is where my heart is. And this is what I need to be doing.
David Gwyn: Yeah, I feel like that's such an important thing for people who are [00:04:00] listening and thinking about, you know, obviously people who are listening or want an
agent. And one of the, one of the things to think about is like, is your agent. How much do they know about the industry? And somebody like you, who's, who's been on kind of both sides, they've got the writer side, the author side, they've got the publishing side, they've got the editorial aspect makes, you know, finding agents like that is really beneficial because they have. Much broader scope of the entirety of the, of the publishing world. And I think that's really important for people who are listening to think about, like it, it does your agent, the agent you're submitting to what level of scope do they have? And sometimes that comes in different forms. Like it might be, they're at a big agency, so they have all, they can tap into a lot of resources there.
Sometimes it's, well, they've been an agent for X number of years, or, you know what I mean? There's a variety of different ways in which that you can, you can kind of gauge an agent's expertise. But I love that one. I, I love that one. I love talking to agents who are authors as well because I think that they have like a unique way of thinking about the industry and they tend to do things like this cause they know. They want to help other writers like they are. So I [00:05:00] think that's really, really cool.
Jessica Berg: Yeah, totally.
David Gwyn: yeah. So I want to talk a little bit about what you're looking for in, in genres first, just kind of like generally speaking. What genres do you, are you looking for? You'd like to rep?
Jessica Berg: So I'm definitely a mood repper. I'm sorry to everyone who, like, wants a very specific answer for that. You know, at Rosecliff, we do this thing where we do seasonal manuscript wish lists. Because I really feel like, as you know, as author myself, I understand that sometimes I'm really vibing with some kind of space, and then the season changes, and I'm like, I don't want to write about this.
I want to go to something else. So we try to live cyclically in that way, but overall, what I'm always on the lookout for is a story that sticks with me after I finish it, right? Like, is it the thing that I forget? Like, Oh, I don't, Didn't eat a snack today or didn't get up from my desk. So that could be like a really diverse cast.
That could be something gothic and eerie. Haunted houses, small towns, generational curses. Really, if it grips me, it grips me.
David Gwyn: Yeah, that's great. I, I know. As [00:06:00] somebody who spent time querying like that can be frustrating, but I think also it does, I think, leave the door open when an agent's not super specific because I think, and we hear this all the time. I hear this all the time from agents. They're like, I don't know. I just know when I, when I see it. And sometimes that, like I, like you said, that can be frustrating, but at the same time, like, it's also great because if you're somebody who really wants to work with an agent, They're not like, oh, I only rep this very narrow thing. And that's, that can be a good thing in a lot of ways.
Jessica Berg: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I definitely have, like, delineations of the genres I like. For example, I really love a middle aged protagonist right now. Like, I'm not the best fit for a new adult right now or for high fantasy space opera, right? Like, that's just, I, I don't have the connections with editors that are strong enough to be able to get that to success.
So, you know, there are things that I look for, but overall, if it's grippy with voice, if it's got character, if it's got tension, then I'm going to take a look at it no matter what.
David Gwyn: Yeah, that's, that's, that's really cool. So let me ask you, if you're getting into [00:07:00] submissions here you're looking at manuscripts, what are you looking for in kind of the first couple pages? Like, what are the things that you're like, not necessarily a checklist, but you notice that the things that you end up requesting have some Yeah,
Jessica Berg: Oh, it's definitely a check list. I am type A. Like, we know what we're doing over here. Okay. you know, and that really comes from a long line of like working as a dev ed. So I look for in the opening pages. I want to know what our external conflict is in some way. I want hints at what the internal conflict is.
I want to know that I'm in the hands of an author who is going to guide me along this path of 80, 000 words. And I'm going to get something by the end of it. And I think it's really easy. The more that we look at manuscript and the more we're immersed in narrative to, to almost immediately now, like I can tell within a paragraph or two, like, Oh, this person knows what they're doing for sure.
So something that feels really specific, really vivid, very unforgettable. It's those moments that make me trust the author and say, [00:08:00] okay, I'm going to keep reading.
David Gwyn: no, I think that's great and I, I do, I like that it's a checklist. Usually people are like, I just kind of go with how it feels, but it's nice that you know, I,, I run this community with, with Thriller writers and we had somebody in earlier this week who talked a lot about she's a former literary agent and she talked a lot about like kind of the checklist without saying it was a checklist, but she was like, these are the things that are going to get you through not, you know, a full request or not requested more materials.
And it sounded a lot like that which, which is interesting, but I do think it makes sense, you know, somebody who's in the industry like you it makes sense to have, you know, to, to know what you're looking for because, and this was her point, and I'll ask, I'll ask you if you agree, like, you know, you're not the end point to this story.
You're just like you mentioned the connector, you have to then take this thing. And move it along to a publishing house, which has an editor and marketing and all of these other people. And so you have to also know that it's ready to [00:09:00] pass all those hurdles too, right? Is that, is that
kind of how you're thinking about it?
Jessica Berg: that is. And then, you know, when we ultimately get to pub board, the, the people who are deciding about your deal are never going to read your book. So we need to know straight away that it can be distilled into like, an elevator pitch, which is why I like the checklist. Because then I can come back, especially when we're in genre, we're in thriller, police, procedural, crime, anything like that, your readers expect a certain pacing.
They expect a specific type of internal, external conflict interplay. And so if you're giving that to me in the opening pages, I feel more comfortable in saying, okay, this guy knows what they're doing and I'm going to keep reading. So that's absolutely spot on.
David Gwyn: Yeah, cool. All right, great. So we're, let's get into this submission here
and let's,
Paula: Summary: Reader, I burned him. its been ten years since Emma Martin murdered her abusive lover, Thomas. emmas quiet life in the small French town of Doulun is suddenly threatened when thomass American widow Mary turns up with evidence that proves emmas guilt; [00:10:00] she has a photo of Emma with Thomas just before his death.
Chapter 1:
2019
Unlike his mother, Thomas didnt die at his birth. Had he done so, it would have saved me killing him forty years later and spared us both a lot of bother. its his birthday today. He wont be celebrating, but he would have liked my choice of outfit – pretty in pink.
id be lying if I said I regretted killing my boyfriend – an unfortunate term for a forty year old balding Frenchman – but lover isnt an option here, so dead boyfriend it is. I dont regret killing Thomas, although id be the first to admit that getting involved with him was a terrible idea. In the grey hours, where remorse reigns supreme, I deeply regret my move to France, to this ghastly town, and to this house, a house with history. Doulun was definitely a very bad move.
How could I not have known about what had happened, they asked? How could I have been so naïve, so foolish? So ignorant? lets flip the [00:11:00] question – how many French serial killers could they name, off the top of their heads?
Sadly, killing Thomas hasnt got rid of him. A decade on, hes still around. Even dead, the man wont leave me alone. I flinch at the touch of his hand, recoil from his breath. Aftershave lingers in the shower. Cigarette smoke furls impishly behind shutters. He was here again this morning, watching me walk home from the market. I didnt turn round. I wouldnt see him. I never do.
ive burned all my bridges, if youll pardon the pun. Move house. Leave town. Come home. Put it all behind you. As helpful as all the well-meaning crap on how to get a good nights sleep. ive tried everything, even having a bash at saucisson washed down with vodka – which apparently worked wonders for Nathalie Sarraute but sadly did zilch for me. Sometimes sex does the trick. Mostly, I rely on prescription medication; more dependable than the sex, easier to come by and frankly, less hassle.
insomnias possibly the only [00:12:00] thing I cant blame France, or even Thomas, for. ive been snatching at sleep for decades, long before I moved here, or met my bank manager. In those heady, early days with Thomas I slept, albeit fitfully, dreamlessly, waking early with clammy thighs and a dry tongue, to an urgent hand at my breast and a mouth on my neck.
theres a cough but its not Thomas. The man sitting opposite me in my sunny living room is waiting for a reply. Arnaud has a notepad perched on his chino-clad thigh and an expectant pen in his left hand.
“And doesnt hum,” I say. “Hummmmmm.” I pull my hair into a business like ponytail, pushing all thoughts of the birthday boy back where they belong.
Arnaud scribbles something, smiles and nods – either in agreement or because he understands hum. Arnaud wants to learn English, so he can write lyrics like Dylan. Today, to broaden his urban vocabulary, were discussing online dating profiles.
David Gwyn: What do you think is the biggest strength of these opening pages?
Jessica Berg: Oh, my [00:13:00] gosh, this voice, like, it's sharp. It's darkly humorous. It's brimming with personality. I felt like the narrator's biting observations and that tone really drew me in immediately. And it made me want to know more about the story. I'm going to suspend my disbelief about any of the knowledge gaps I have about this world because of the voice.
And I felt very much like it was this very rare balance of wit and gravity. And that's really, really hard to do. So super kudos to this author.
David Gwyn: Yeah, I, I marked that down to
the voice. There's so many fun voice moments and it, it feels like to me the more I do this with agents and, and talk to people in the industry, it does feel like if you're going to make mistakes in your manuscript. like character will overshadow them. Like if you've got a character with great voice, agents, industry professionals will be like you know, we got to fix something, but the character's great.
Did you find that's true for you?
Jessica Berg: Oh my gosh, right? Like you meet someone at a party [00:14:00] and you're like, you've got a great personality, but you kind of smell like garlic. You're going to suspend that because you're like, I want to keep talking to you. It is the same thing here because we can always look at how to refine conflict or how to improve pacing.
But if your character's a dud, your character's a dud. And this submission, the character is not a dud, right?
David Gwyn: Were there any lines especially that you found that you thought were particularly voicey or things that stood out to you that you were like, this is, if people who are listening who've heard this, that we can just point out to them and say, like. This is character voice.
Jessica Berg: Okay, the opening is the perfect talk. It's bold, it's provocative, it sets this very clear expectation of something that's going to be unconventional and morally complex. So I felt like it hit on a lot of levels, right? I also loved this sensory detail a little bit later in the work that said, I flinch at the touch of his hand, recoil from his breath, aftershave, lingers in the shower, cigarette, smoke, frills, impishly behind shutters.
Like, it's purple, it's purple prose, we've got some imagery there, but it's not so over the top. [00:15:00] I felt like I was pulled from it, right? Instead, it made Thomas's ghost presence feel like almost unnervingly real.
David Gwyn: So, tell me a little bit about this cause I'm curious about this submission and the structure really of the narrative in that usually when it comes to thrillers, obviously not always, but usually, we don't know who the killer is and we obviously get that right off the bat here. We know, and obviously, you know, We might have more issues down the road, but right off the bat, we, we hear the kind of admission here.
So how did that work for you? I think. It worked for me in a certain way, so I'm gonna, I'm gonna let you go first. But I'm curious how that worked for you,
Jessica Berg: so I felt like that was a wink and a nod to an audience, right? Which I really like, and I don't think we see that enough in thrillers specifically. I think this genre is one that likes to sort of hit its gateposts and just move on. But seeing something that is unconventional, knowing that we're dealing with this ghostly element, I was like, I love this, like, I don't feel like I'm getting the twist too early because I anticipate, [00:16:00] because I'm in the hands of a strong author, I anticipate there are going to be some fantastic twists later.
So this felt very, like, basic lay of the land. They're not planting a seed, they're just telling me who they are. And so I loved it.
David Gwyn: Yeah. I, I feel like we, and I think this was like a trope that, that hopefully has passed entirely, but I'm sure it hasn't. But the, the main character, the narrator being the killer and not revealing it to the audience is sometimes something, I mean, I think it's, it's been used really well, but I think now it's like one of those things where you're like, Really, that's the end of the you kept that from me as like a reader I'm in your head the entire book
and like you didn't you happen to hide that from me the whole time
Jessica Berg: right, right. Absolutely. I mean, we read because we want to experience someone else's experiences right through their eyes. But if if we're holding that back, it definitely feels like a bait and switch. And so I think, you know, that that first line that's I loved it so much for those reasons and so many more.
David Gwyn: We kind of touched on this but but I'll have you share I'd love to hear your insight on this like what was it about this First, just, you know, page and a [00:17:00] half here that for you is something that you're looking for in a manuscript.
Jessica Berg: Right, so I really enjoy character driven narrative. Like, it still has to have plot but I love something that feels morally complex. We've got a really voicey character, and I always love anything that straddles a genre. You know, I think gone are the days where it's thriller and it's thriller and there's nothing else.
So I felt like we got suspense, and we've got some supernatural undertones. There's this dark humor. It all felt very fresh and very distinctive in a genre that sometimes feels like a really crowded space.
David Gwyn: Yeah, as somebody who talks to a lot of thriller writers I find that the ones that seem to be doing best now, and as somebody in the industry, you know, I definitely am interested to hear your thoughts on this, seem to be the ones that are blending Something like they're thriller with elements of horror.
They're thriller with elements of mystery. And it really feels like those are the books that stand out and like you mentioned it a crowded market. Is that kind of what you're [00:18:00] imagining? Looking for what you're seeing in this in this type of manuscript?
Jessica Berg: Oh, absolutely. This is across the board. All of my editors want one genre plus another genre. Because no one reads exclusively police procedurals. No one exclusively reads horror. We want horror with feminist rage. We want horror with romance, We want horror with, you know, something else pick what it is.
But we love those genre mashups. And you know I think, It kind of like harkens back to 40, 50 years ago in publishing, where if you were a thriller reader, that's all you read, and you were engrossed in that genre, and that was fine, and that was it, but we have more forms of media now. We have more ways to consume narrative.
And so, of course, we always want these mashups.
David Gwyn: Yeah, I'm curious when you think about your query inbox specifically in genre, like thriller, how many, like what percentage or can you give a ballpark of things that are coming in as straight thriller versus coming in as a mash of, of a few things?
Jessica Berg: I [00:19:00] rarely see anything that is only one genre these days. Because I am, you know, I pretty, I talk about it a lot on all my socials because I want the genre mashup because I know my editors want it. And so if you can bring me a polished narrative that feels that way, that's going to be easier for me to get you into the next gate.
David Gwyn: Yeah, very cool. What are you hoping to see in the next you know, even five to seven pages from this, from this author that would make you want to even read more?
Jessica Berg: Right. So I'd like to see a deepening of tension between the narrator and the lingering presence. So either through like ghostly manifestations or some kind of psychological unraveling, or even hints about the narrator's past to help me inform and develop a bigger picture about who they are. I like that relationship with Arnaud, but I thought that we, I wanted to see a little bit more of how that dynamic develops.
Like, it's always so hard in the 1st chapter because we're asking so much of the work. And so I always recommend that, you know, You might not know how to write your first [00:20:00] chapter until you've written your last one, because you need to know how you to mirror it, right? Like, what is that last lingering image will then give me the exact reverse and opposite.
But that's what I would sense that we're going to get from these pages. Maybe also a few breadcrumbs about why the narrator killed Thomas, and like, what's happening as we're going.
David Gwyn: Yeah, I feel like that's, that's such a hard thing to balance for a writer that's doing so much character work is how are we building in Yeah, how we're building intention and stakes and character voice and conflict, and that's a lot to handle, but I think that that's, that's kind of the job, right?
That's the, that's the work of the writer
which I think, you know, is, is difficult, but it's something, like you mentioned, it comes from somebody who's written a bunch. And it seems like this, this writer has a good handle on what they're doing. And so I, I think that's, that's great insights. And so when you, when you are taking on full manuscripts, are you, Typically sitting and reading those beginning to end like are you looking for these things like you [00:21:00] mentioned the kind of like the scope of this are you trying to get a huge chunk of it done at a time or are you have like three or four full manuscripts that you're bouncing around and trying to figure out which one maybe seems like the one that you might work with?
Jessica Berg: Yeah, that's such a hard question, right? Because if it's something that is gripping, I will sit beginning to end. If I feel like my attention is drifting, then I have to evaluate, like, okay, well, is it because the narrative is lacking? Is it because my attention is not focused? Right? So much of what we do here is, you know, We have to be so hyper focused and I have to come into every single narrative with a fresh mind because everyone deserves that, right?
Like, you've given me your work, you've trusted me with your work, so I need to give you my best as well. But if by the second, third, fourth, fifth time I can't get into it, I can't get past, like, the 20 percent mark, then I kind of think, okay, maybe I love the pitch, maybe I love the concept, I might even really like the writing, but the novel is not gripping me.
So And that's tough too, right? This is a very [00:22:00] subjective industry. And so then to say, I'm so sorry, I've requested your full, but I don't didn't align with the characters. I didn't fall in love with the story. It feels so, so oblique. It's like, what are you actually saying? And it's hard to articulate that.
And so like, I mean, it's tough all around, right?
David Gwyn: Yeah, and I think as a, as a, an author, you can definitely feel this the way that a lot of writers feel about agents, I think is misguided. Like they, they want like any. agent under the sun. They're like, like whoever, whatever. And you really don't want that. You, you want an agent who is obsessed with your story. You want an agent who, because like, like you mentioned, you know, you're not the end of the road. You're like the beginning of
anything. You're like the first step on this very long path. And so you want, you don't want anybody as a writer. You want, The right agent for your story. And you mentioned this a couple times and it doesn't come up a ton on the podcast, but you know, agents, you have certain connections with certain editors and you know what they're looking for.
And so [00:23:00] you, as a writer, you don't want to sign with any agent who may not have connections in the genre or looking for the book that you're pitching because That book's not going anywhere. You know, you're going to sit on sub for, for a year and then by that time it's, it's going to be dead and you're going to be writing the next thing.
And you know, you may have missed an opportunity because you, you weren't more patient. And so I want people to hear that. I like, I'm harping on that a lot on the podcast. I'm like, Listen to what Jessica's saying, like what she's saying is like, if she doesn't love it, she's going to say no, but it's not because there's anything like inherently wrong with it.
It's just she's not the right person. And that's true of any agent. So yeah, I think that's a great,
Jessica Berg: And, you know, I think the other thing of it, too, is like, it's not just the relationships you have with the editors. It's what, you know, what the editors are looking for as well, right? Like, let's, let's take it a step further. So if you're writing dystopia, like, I'm sorry, please pause. Don't write dystopia right now.
Like, we're not ready for dystopia. If you're writing pandemics. Please pause. Do not write that right now because as a, as a community, we're just not ready to take on that [00:24:00] kind of narrative. But, you know, publishing often has this pick me mentality, right? Because it's one gate after the other after the other, and it takes forever to get anywhere, and then you're still not where you want to be.
So patience is definitely key, but then it's also personality. I have to be, like you said, completely obsessed with your book. More than you are obsessed because my enthusiasm is going to get you from the pitch. I send to an editor to the pub board because I can't stop gushing about why this project is so fantastic.
And if you don't align, like, on a personality level with your agent, it's it's never going to work.
David Gwyn: yeah,
no, I think that's, that's such a great point, such a great point and a great thing, a great place for us to end. So my last question for you is just where can people find you? Where can people look you up?
Jessica Berg: Yeah, absolutely. Rose Cliff lit on X and on Instagram. If you want to hang out with me personally, I'm at Jessica Berg on Instagram and Blue Sky.
David Gwyn: Nice. So I'll link to some of that stuff.
So if you're listening and you want to get in touch with Jessica, you have quick access. You head down in the description and check that out. So Jessica, [00:25:00] I honestly, I could talk to you all day. This was, this was so much fun. It was great. So thanks so much for
hanging out.
Jessica Berg: absolutely. My pleasure. This is such a treat.
David Gwyn: Okay, so that's it. I really hope you enjoyed this interview with Jessica. She shared some really important insights for writers that I'm sure you're going to find helpful. Don't forget to head down in the description to sign up for the Storyteller Society waitlist. It's getting pretty long, so be sure to secure your spot now.
And I'll see you next week.