145 The View from the Slush Pile: A Literary Agent's Fresh Take on What Works with Tommy Dean

What if I told you that right now, while established agents are drowning in hundreds of submissions, there's a brand new literary agent who's actively building his client list and genuinely excited to discover your manuscript? 

In this episode, Tommy Dean shares what makes him your ideal partner in this industry. 

Tommy shares... 

• the insider secrets that separate professional queries from amateur ones
• why newer agents might actually be your best bet for building a career-long partnership,
• some hard truths about what's instantly killing your chances in the query process. 

If you're serious about traditional publishing, this conversation could be the game-changer that gets your work noticed.

Bio: Tommy Dean is an associate literary agent with Rosecliff Literary, the author of two flash fiction chapbooks, Special Like the People on TV (Redbird Chapbooks, 2014) and Covenants (ELJ Editions, 2021), and a full flash collection, Hollows (Alternating Current Press, 2022). He lives in Indiana, where he is currently the editor of Fractured Lit and Uncharted Magazine. A recipient of the 2019 Lascaux Prize in Short Fiction, his writing can be found in Best Microfiction 2019, 2020, 2023, and Best Small Fiction 2019 and 2022. His work has been published in Monkeybicycle, Laurel Review, Moon City Review, Pithead Chapel, Harpur Palate, and many other litmags. He has taught writing workshops for the Gotham Writers Workshop, The Writers Center, and The Writers Workshop. Find him at tommydeanwriter.com and on Twitter @TommyDeanWriter.

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Transcript

David Gwyn: 0:00

Tommy, thanks so much for being on the Thriller 1 0 1 Podcast.

Tommy Dean: 0:02

Thank you so much for having me.

David Gwyn: 0:04

Yeah. I'm really excited to chat with you. You're, you're in this really cool place where you're a newer agent, you're kind of feeling your way out there, and, and I'm really excited to hear kind of what made you want to take that leap and then. Really what you're looking for and, and what you've kind of, kind of the experience you've had so far, which I think is gonna be really fun. So first I wanna just start with what made you wanna become an agent?

Tommy Dean: 0:25

Yeah, great question. Well, I am a lit mag editor. I I edit two literary magazines. One is Fractured Lit, which is flash fiction, and one which is Uncharted Magazine, which is genre, short stories and novel excerpts. And I've been doing that for the last. Five years. I was a reader of lit mags before that. I have an MFA I've written several failed novels myself. I love story. I love talking about story. I love analyzing story on my substack. I break down flash fiction and the way that I think it works so that other writers can hopefully take some inspiration from that. And work on their own stuff. I'm now starting to try to break down novels for my substack as well. So I just love story. I love talking story. I talk story with my kids. My wife, they don't seem to care as much. And so I've always, always been interested in story more on the short form, but you know, I, I've, I read anywhere from 50 to 80 novels every year. Like I just love it. And I come to it as a reader first. And the more that I started writing, the more I started editing, the more I wanted to be like, how can I help other people, you know pursue their dreams of publication, especially traditional publication. And then Jessica Berg was on your podcast not that long ago. Yeah. She's been working with me as one of my developmental editors for both literary magazines, and she said, Hey, if you ever thought about it, I think you'd be great. And it's not very often that you get an offer from someone that's just like, I think you'd be great at this. Why don't you join me? And so I thought about it for about a month just to make sure that it was something that I wanted to take the challenge of. And it just felt like a great time and place where I'm at in my life, in my writing community, in my own writing my kids' ages that it felt like a good place. To go ahead and tackle this next part of editing In some ways although I've quickly learned that it's not quite as much editing, I have to almost turn the editing brain off a little bit. Okay. When I'm reading full manuscripts, because I as Jessica inform me am not. The last person to be able to touch the book. I'm the person to help get it to the editor in that acquiring team. So that's kind of how I started and it's only been exactly three months. Nice. So it has been a very short amount of time. So I am very much a baby agent But I feel like I have. A background that I think other writers are really gonna like. I'm a writer myself. I still try to write as much as I can, even with everything else that's going on. I know the lit mag space. I know what it feels like to try to put a story together. I know what it feels like Try and attempt several novels. I know what that feels like too. And it also I think Jessica called herself a connector, and I never really thought about myself that way, but in this space, I'm constantly trying to learn from other writers, other editors, other agents, all that kind of stuff. So it felt like the right time to kind of put all those things together.

David Gwyn: 3:21

Yeah. That's awesome. It's, it's funny, as I'm listening, I, I'm always thinking, as you can imagine, always thinking from the writer side, like when we're thinking about what agents to pitch and what ones to, to send queries to. And hearing that you have this editorial side is so important because I, you know, as, as writers, we hear a lot about literary agents and some are editorial and some aren't. And whether you, you're doing a huge editorial pass or not, it's, it's good to know that you're, you have somebody in your corner who has that, those editorial chops like you have, because I imagine as a writer signing up with somebody and saying like, okay, like if this story needs work or if my future novels need work. I'm signing on with somebody who can help me deliver that. Right. And I think that's really.

Tommy Dean: 4:09

Yeah.'cause somebody asked me bef before, like if I became their client, like, would they still need the whole bunch of beta readers? Would they need developmental editors before? Like their second book came my way? And I was like, no, no. Like we are a team in that regard at that point. If you feel that you need to do that before you send it to me that would be one thing. Probably beta readers for sure, maybe still, but like developmental editors, like. I am now the person that's gonna help you get it ready to pitch to editors. I do feel like I need to figure out the balance between like how much developmental editing you do before you get it to the pitch situation.'cause like I said, I was reading a book and I was like, oh. I would ask this question, I would ask this question I would ask,'cause I'm always reading as a writer anyway, but now I'm reading as this other person who is like, oh, how can we get this book ready to sell? Yeah. To the editor. And that is kind of a, a mind shift. But I think I'm getting it.

David Gwyn: 5:03

I think too, the, the other part of it too, which, which I really like when I'm again looking, putting my writer hat on and thinking as a writer is, you know, there's always that balance of do you want this? Agent who has a, a bun, like a track record of all, you know, a bunch of sales, or do you want a newer agent or you want some, and I, I tend to think the, the people that I've talked to who sign with newer agents, they tend to feel really supported. And I think it's because, you know, you're getting into this industry, you're figuring it out. You, you have a smaller client list. You know, you're not signing on with an agent who's got. 20, 30, 40 writers that they're working with. Yeah, exactly. And I think that that's a real plus for, for somebody who's thinking about what type of agents to to query, having an agent in your corner who only has a few clients is a real major positive, I think,

Tommy Dean: 5:53

and I'm so used to supporting writers. You know, on a smaller scale anyway, like we do so much with social media and trying to make sure that their work is getting out to as many readers as possible. Yeah. So like I still have that in my background and so I think people that get in on the ground floor with me, which is a weird thing to say are, are gonna get that for sure. Before, you know, I build to. However many yeah. And then you have to kind of wait in line in some ways. We all know that publishing is very slow. It's a very slow, it's even been a slow kind of build for me on this end, just'cause I am balancing lots of other jobs and parenting and Yeah. All that kind of stuff. So yeah, if you can get in with someone that's really excited to start building their client list, and Editors want debuts. And so it's also pretty cool when you find a new agent that is also, you know, trying to sell a debut as, as well, right? Like we all fortunately or unfortunately want the new thing. And so sometimes it can be good to be Yeah, with a newer, a newer person. Yeah, learning the, the ropes and someone that. Is just really excited about what they're doing. Like I love that people are sending me what feels like their life work and they're trusting me with that. And the fact that I, I get to read in my little corner what someone's been spending, you know, their days and weeks and months and hours. On, and I get it'cause I'm doing the same thing. Even if I'm not writing a novel and I'm writing flash instead, like I'm still doing the same thing. And so writer to writer, I get it. I really do.

David Gwyn: 7:20

That's very cool. And I think for people who are listening, you know, thinking about, do you want somebody in your corner who makes you, you know, you're, you're another one on the list. They've gone through this a hundred times and they're just, you're, you know, someone else to try to sell. And then quickly, if you're not selling, they're gonna move on from you. Or you want somebody in your corner who like. Knows you and has a relationship with you and is invested in you. And I, I think that it, it's tough. I think sometimes as a querying writer, and I'm sure you felt this way too, like, where do I go? How do I find that balance? But I, I really, like I said, I, I really like the, I like the idea of going with a, a newer agent. I think that that. It has all those benefits like you're talking about and, and somebody like you who is working with Jessica who has some experience, you know, and, and, and is, you're able to like bounce ideas off of her, which I think I'm sure you do, and I think is, is really important aspect too.

Tommy Dean: 8:10

Yeah. I mean, she's doing amazing already in her first year and I'm also broadening my mutual agent people that I can, you know, get help from as well. So like, I'm learning and some people may not exactly want an agent that's learning as much, but it, it's all part of the process. And I think the key word that you said was relationships Like I've spent my whole like literary. Thing trying to build citizenship and relationships. And that doesn't stop as an agent. In fact, it's one of the things I think is really cool is to build a long-term professional relationship with my writers and, and being there for the parts that are gonna be so amazing for them when we, when we sell their, their, their book.

David Gwyn: 8:52

Yeah, that's super fun. So I'm, I wanna dig in a little bit now here and, and hear about what you're looking for. So let's start genre wise. What, what are you looking for in terms of genre?

Tommy Dean: 9:02

Yeah, well, I'm on Thriller 1 0 1, so I am definitely thrillers, right? I am in the right place. I'm looking for thriller suspense mysteries. I am, I have a criminology undergrad, so I'm into crime as well. And kind of the study of crime and how crime happens. I am really invested in characters that kind of. Are morally gray and also make choices that they feel justified in because of, you know, whatever situation they're in or the mistakes that characters make, that kind of snowball. I'm interested in upmarket and all of that kind of stuff. So I really, you know, I come from a flash side, so I do like. Good language when I can find it as well. I know some agents are super into concept and I'm more into character and the ability to see the writer write and to feel really comfortable in the pages, to know that they're gonna take me from page one to page 320. And I feel. On edge because of the tension and stakes, but not on edge because I don't feel that they have the ability to get me where I need to go to enjoy the story. So I'm not big into sci-fi or horror necessarily, but I, I've been seeing a lot of those elements kind of mixed in I think Thriller in general, right? Like tends to have things like horror or. Even some science fiction can add to the element of tension one more thing I would say is I am on the Hitchcockian side of tension as well. This whole idea of like you, the viewer, knowing there's the bomb underneath the table. I. I love to know and have dramatic irony as a reader. For me that's a really good way to do tension. I have trouble when it, we get to like the last 20% and it's like, oh, by the way, and there weren't enough kind of clues to get me to that point. And I feel like I'm a savvy reader, so. That's good. That's kinda what looking for.

David Gwyn: 10:56

Yeah. Tell me, tell me a little bit so you're, you're sitting down, you get this query in your, your inbox and you're looking at those opening pages are, what are you thinking about? I know, you know, we mentioned Jessica A. Little bit here. I know she's you know, she mentioned she's very particular about what she's looking for and really thinks critically about it. Is that kinda the same way you go about it? Like, what are you looking for in those opening pages

Tommy Dean: 11:18

that, yeah. I've learned that I'm trying to be as open as possible.'cause like I said, I know that people have spent hours and weeks and months and all that, and I want to give it the best shot that I can. Also, knowing that I'm going to be getting a lot of work that is coming through the query trenches as well. So I have to kind of balance that like anyone else. Right? Yeah. For me, I'm really looking for an idea of. The character coming alive to me or the scene coming alive to me. I try to check some of my flash fiction bias when I can, but I love when characters are active on the stage of the story and are not. I. Kind of given to me in like this chunk of summary that the writer feels like I need to know so much about them before they even step onto the stage. I love plays, I love musicals. My daughter's an aspiring actress, so I'm always thinking about like, you know, voice and interiority is great. You have to have it in a novel. You don't so much have it in flash, but you do have to have it in a novel, but. Bring me, bring the character to life first, physically, visually, and then we can sink into kind of that interiority. I'm also seeing a lot of omniscience lately'cause I think it's kind of like used to be kind of a gold standard of like the mystery or the procedural kind of novel. But I don't know that that's getting me personally into the story I want to experience the story with the character as much as possible.

David Gwyn: 12:47

Yeah. I think you see that a lot. I've seen that a lot more in this genre. Especially more recently as people seem to be moving away from omniscience. I think that depending on your sub-genre there, I I, I'm, I don't wanna speak about mystery'cause I'm not a huge mystery Sure. Reader, not a huge mystery reader obviously, but like. I think that mysteries tend to lean more in that way, but I've seen a lot of thrillers move away from that. And I think it is for that, you know, if you, if you, you want to feel in danger for, for a novel that

Tommy Dean: 13:17

that has Yeah, for sure. Yeah, exactly. Especially in a thriller, right? Like you I love Taylor Adams writing. I think he does an amazing job of putting the reader directly kind of in danger. In a really great way, but also balancing character as well so that you're not just like necessarily like the camera pans up and your character is running and you don't know what they're running from. Right. Context is so important even in a thriller. Yeah.

David Gwyn: 13:45

Yeah. That's super important to, to bring up. So I'm gonna ask you a difficult question now that we've, we've broken in a little bit. You're warmed up. Yeah. What do you, what do you think is the most surprising or interesting thing about being an agent that you didn't anticipate going in?

Tommy Dean: 14:02

Oh, that is a good question. There is a lot of reading, which I knew there'd be a lot of reading, right. I already read, you know, 50 to 80 books anyway. But I've had to cut back on my own personal enjoyment reading. I've over 3000 books. Like I have like. Like a mini library in my house. So I'm just staring at the books that I bought in the last, you know however many months before I started being an agent in January, thinking like, oh, I'm gonna read this book and I'm gonna read this book. I don't read this book. And I was like, oh no, I'm now reading FOS and I can't take it off on my Good reads yet until it eventually becomes, you know, maybe. A novel that, you know, somebody has bought yeah. You know, three to five years from now. So that was a little surprising to me that I, that I have to balance that. And I, I'm sure people are shaking their heads going, okay, of course. Right? The other thing that I wasn't as. Expecting'cause there's so much information out there about like what agents are looking for, what editors are looking for is that I often get low word counts that I'm like, oh, I don't know what to do with a 40,000 word. Piece of manuscript, What I'm hearing is, you know, 70 to 70 at the lowest and towards a hundred thousand. So I'm getting some things that are quite low in the word count and I, I'm not sure what I'm going to do with that because like, I may, I may even still, you know, I'm gonna read a little bit of it, you know, the first 10 pages, what if I love it and then I am in this like limbo with the author of like. I love what you got here, but I need it is like half.

David Gwyn: 15:30

Okay. So that's really interesting. So it sounds like to me that, that still we're seeing people, I feel like, I feel like this. Makes sense that it was common 20, 30 years ago before like the internet and all these podcasts and people listening. Yeah. But it feels like, to me, every time I talk to an agent, I'm always surprised how many writers are querying things that are outside of word count or aren't with the agent rap or you know, just like dear agent blasts of, of emails. And it sounds like to me that there are still people doing this across the board. And I think that's. In some ways, like disheartening.'cause you're like, what are, where are people? But on the other side of it, as serious writers, people who listen to podcasts like this mm-hmm. And people who invest in, in their writing career. That's gotta make, I think that should make you feel good that you know, you know that there's a lot of writers out there, there's a lot of queries out there. I. But the moment you take it seriously and you are querying an agent who represents the genre that you're talking about or that you're, that you're writing in and you have the appropriate word count, you're probably ahead of the game in a lot of ways. You're

Tommy Dean: 16:31

clearing a lot of hurdles. Already. And, and the agent is gonna be a, a lot more apt to be looking at yours closer. You know, if you've got somebody that's say 85 and they're 85,000 words and they're falling on the rules, and then you have a really great concept and you've got some really good comps and you've used in kind of an XY format. And allow us to know this, like all these things, right? You've done your work because you are now have gone from the art side to the professional side when you're selling it and it becomes a different thing. Anything that you're doing before you start to query is totally whatever you need to do to write the book, right? What to make it the best that you can. Sometimes I think people get tripped up and they're like. I'll talk about like, you know, what you might do on a first page. And they're like, that's a lot to do. And I'm like, yeah, but that's like, you know, draft five, draft 10, that's revision part. Like everything that you do before that is whatever you need to do to make it the best book that you can. But there are so many resources out there. So you are kind of jumping ahead and in a lot of ways, if you are. Yeah. Paying attention to a podcast like this, if you're reading the articles that you have on your website plus all the other articles or all the other agents like me, Yeah. That's gonna make a difference when you're ready to sell the thing that you've worked so hard towards.

David Gwyn: 17:49

Yeah. No, I, I love that. And I, I'm, I'm big on here. I, I talk a lot about. The difference between your writing as an art, which it is, but you're also operating if you want to sell your book, especially traditionally, which is what we talk about here on, on this podcast. If you wanna sell your book, traditionally you are inherently in a business. And, and if you don't wanna be part of that business, you are, you don't have to, you know, it's great. There's so many self-publishing opportunities now. There's so much information out there if that is the route you want to go. I, I, I support that and I think every, everyone in the community has been really supportive and, and continues to be of kind of taking whatever path it makes the most sense for you. But if you're traditionally publishing, then you have to be thinking about the, the publishing industry as as a business.

Tommy Dean: 18:31

Yeah. And you want to give yourself the best shot if you're gonna really try to traditionally publish, and it's hard to do. Mm-hmm. And I'm sure we talk about this all the time, like. SA lot of times with querying, it takes over a hundred queries to find an agent a lot of times, and that doesn't necessarily mean that they're gonna be able to sell your book. So it is really hard. So you wanna give yourself the best shot that you can,

David Gwyn: 18:50

Yeah. That's great. So, Tommy, this has been so much fun. I, I really appreciate you taking the time to, to chat on the Thriller 1 0 1 Podcast. My, my last question for you is just. For people who are listening, where, where can they find you? Where can they look you up?

Tommy Dean: 19:01

Lots of places. I am on Rosecliff literary dot com's website. My I'm on Ms. Wls wishlist website. Mm-hmm. I'm on query tracker. That's the best way to send me a query. I am still on Twitter at Tommy Dean, writer and I love interacting with people on there. I'm on Blue Sky as well, Instagram. All, all the usual places all under Tommy Dean, usually Tommy Dean, writer.

David Gwyn: 19:26

Good. So I'll, I'll link to that stuff so people who are listening will have quick access to you. Tommy, like I said, this, this has been really fun. Thanks for hanging out.

Tommy Dean: 19:33

Thanks so much for giving this baby agent a chance to, to talk about the business.

David Gwyn: 19:38

Yeah, of course.