Thriller 101
A podcast for readers and writers of thriller, mystery, suspense, and crime fiction.
Thriller 101
How to Write Thrillers That Actually Matter with Aaron Philip Clark
What if the setting you choose could be as morally complex as your protagonist?
In this episode, USA Today bestselling author Aaron Philip Clark pulls back the curtain on how he crafts crime fiction that thrills and matters.
Aaron reveals:
- his process for weaving heavy themes into page-turners without slowing the pace
- why he writes from a place of frustration and injustice
- how to make every setting choice deliberate and loaded with meaning.
If you're tired of writing surface-level thrillers or struggling to add depth without killing your momentum, this conversation will change how you approach your craft.
Aaron's insights on creating "literary humans" instead of plot devices alone are worth the listen, but his framework for balancing suspense with substance is something I personally will be implementing in my work.
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So today on the Thriller 1 0 1 podcast, I'm joined by Aaron Philip Clark, USA, today bestselling novelist, screenwriter, professor, and host of the Culture Point Podcast. Aaron's stories blend this really cool atmosphere with themes of like, race justice, redemption. We've had the opportunity to talk a few times. I always love talking to Aaron'cause he provides so much great advice for, for writers. But I think also. he's one of the writers that I listen to who, when I hear his interview, it makes me read his work more deeply, which I think is super cool. And so if you listen to this podcast and you, and, and you like this conversation with Aaron, which as I'm sure you will I'll link to Aaron's other conversations from the further one one podcast down in the description, so you can check that out. Today we're talking about his latest novel, the Bluest Knight. Which follows Trevor Finnegan as he investigates a quote, deadly conspiracy that if he survives, will change him forever. Aaron, welcome back to the Thriller 1 0 1 Podcast.
Aaron Philip Clark:Happy to be here.
David Gwyn:So tell us before we get any further, I wanna know what, what is the Bluest night about?
Aaron Philip Clark:So the Bluest night is, the third Trevor Finnegan novel. So it picks up essentially really two weeks after the end of the second novel, which was blue like me. So Trevor has just learned that he has a, kind of long lost stepbrother, his father has, has told him that, you know, he had this other family and it produced this child and his stepbrother Avery is living in Nevada and his father has been in communication with him. And Avery has decided to come from Nevada to California to meet his beat his father along. And he's bringing his girlfriend along with this idea that they may be, you know, they're gonna announce this engagement and they're gonna get married. You know, it looks like there's gonna be this wonderful kind of family reunion. The only thing is that his father they never make it to his father. And Avery's girlfriend is found. Dead in Malibu. And Avery is ultimately discovered there as well
David Gwyn:Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark:Trevor and his father. And he's been beaten and he can barely remember anything. And so he's taken into custody because they're not so sure if he's involved or not.
David Gwyn:Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark:so pop Finnegan or Sean Finnegan, but they call him Pop. Trevor's father is. In complete denial and doesn't think that he could produce, you know a child who would do anything like that to another human being. And so he immediately suspects that there's some sort of foul play going on. And so with the help of what I call the kind of modern, fem fatal being and it, it is cool to have that. She comes back, but you know Cassandra Boyle, her return. As this Malibu resident they kind of lean on her because she's local. And she lets them stay there as they kind of investigate this case. And then the deeper they get, the more they realize that there's something incredibly insidious happening in Malibu. And that you know, these communities, these homogenous communities where everyone believes that there's this, this. Level of safety where you don't even have to lock your door. Maybe that exists for some people, but not for all people. And so you know, very much the story is, is examining that notion of what what may lurk just below the surface of a place that we believe to be a paradise.
David Gwyn:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you, you set us right up nicely to, to have these conversations around setting and, and character and theme, which are the things that I, I always love to talk to you about and, and things I wanted to, to dive in here. Let, let's start with character, because I think this is an interesting one. I feel like Because of who's involved in this particular story, there's an added level of suspense and stakes. C can you just talk about like how you balance the kinda emotional family aspect here with a crime plot that you have to kind of keep the pace moving?
Aaron Philip Clark:Well, yeah, I mean I always knew that Trevor was gonna team up with his father and. That was kind of the idea of having this very, two great investigators, but their approach to work is completely different and his father has a lot of baggage. So, you know, in some ways his father antagonizes him a great deal but they have to work together. And so I, I knew that that was gonna kind of be at the heart of it, but I also, you know, I, I look at it as yes, Trevor has probably had, you know, hundreds of other cases, right? But. I look at it where if I'm writing a book, it's about the case that's gonna change him the most.
David Gwyn:Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark:know, so it could be you know, I could, I could have written it in the way where, you know, you have some, some f infantile who walks in and says, I need your help. And you know, that kind of classic paradigm that we've seen. But to me, I'm not that interested. In that, you know, I'm more interested in the cases that are really going to have the most impact on him as a character. And I, and I push Trevor to the edge, you know, I mean, I, I, I mean, you know, some people say they, they have so much pity on him sometimes, you know, people say, oh my gosh, what else can happen to this guy? I say, well, you know, that's the idea is that, you know, unfortunately for Trevor, he's a bit of a lightning rod for chaos. And I think, you know, but the reason he is, is because he's oftentimes the only person who can solve these cases, and he's the only person who can withstand some of this. And so that's why he's chosen in a way to kind of be the champion and the voice for people who are down voiceless and may not get justice if it, if it isn't for him stepping in and, and, and really forcing that justice. And so, you know, that's kind of how I look at it. And all the other characters are, are you know, I don't know if I can say that there's any necessarily one character who is, is good, you know, whatever that means, you know? And so I, I really treat them as literary humans. I mean, all of them have their own baggage. They're all. You know, keeping secrets from each other. They all have these ulterior motives. You know, maybe with exception of, of Serta, you know, she's, she's kind of just, you know, hanging out in, in France, you know, and, and, and living her life and, you know, try to do the best she can for her and improve her baking skills so she can come back and, you know, do her thing. But, you know, other than that, it's, it's, it's, everyone is very much, after something very specific,
David Gwyn:Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark:you know, and Trevor's comes into conflict with so much of that because his will is incredibly strong and you know, his desires are incredibly strong. And so he, he, as he pursues pursues justice anybody who's in the way of that is, is gonna be kind of the same fate.
David Gwyn:Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And, and I, I always love asking you craft questions. You've got that, that writer educator background. So you know, I, I'm sure you knew coming in that, that I was gonna ask you a few, you weren't gonna get outta here without me asking some craft questions.'cause I,'cause I always love your answers, so. What advice would you have for writers who want to weave in like that personal relationships part into their thriller, but without slowing down the story? Like, how can, how can we as writers build in that emotional piece, especially when it comes to like family relationships or other relationships, but maintain the kind of like pacing of that's required for, from a genre like this.
Aaron Philip Clark:Yeah, I mean, I think it's all about determining how much of that will work for the story. You know, and the idea is that it's not, so if we're talking about from the standpoint of an investigator, or let's say, you know, a, a, a police detective or a pi you have to think, okay, well what aspects of the crime itself are going to weigh heavily on the detective?
David Gwyn:Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark:So you, it's not so much about how the, you know, the, I think Womba said it right. It's not about how the. How the detective works, the cases, how the case works, the detective. Right. So the idea is I take that same approach when it comes to the personal, when it comes to the friends or family or significant other or romantic relationship, how does that relationship work? The detective as well? You know, what aspects there now? It could, it could go either way. It could be that that relationship that that detective has with that other person outside of the case is a place of solace,
David Gwyn:Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark:know? Maybe it's where they could go and they could take a break from the case, or maybe it simply just adds another layer of stress that the person now has to deal with. It just, it just depends. But the idea for, to assure that it doesn't slow down the action and the pacing of the novel is to make sure that it's woven in, in a very natural way which means that the, those other characters have to have some sort of role you know in the story. You know, whether it's the, the friendly bartender, you know, who, you know, maybe, you know, your detective doesn't have an office, so he uses the bar and the, you know, bartender, you know, takes the messages for, you know, whatever it is. But Elise, it, it's part of the story. You know, it requires the, the protagonist, your, you know, your detective character or, or you know, at least your, your hero if you will to have to interact with that person. You know, throughout the story.
David Gwyn:Yeah. That's cool. I, I, I think that's really interesting. I, I love the term literary humans that you used. I think that is like such a really cool term for. Rethinking how we think about characters, because I think sometimes people think of characters as characters, and so they have this kind of rigid of what they're capable of and what they should do for the plot. I think I run into that too, like, you know, the plot is a certain way, so you're trying to like jam a character into a plot. But sometimes thinking of them as like literary humans where they have their own ideas about what, where things are going, and sometimes you just, you just have to go with them. I think is super cool. So let's talk the California coast because you, you've been hanging out there in your books now for a little while. And so this setting, does it feel like you'd write it in your sleep or is it more like you're trying to reinvent it every time?
Aaron Philip Clark:Yeah, I mean, it's a mixture of both. So I think that the, the. Kind of tried and true elements of the California coast are always gonna be there, right? I mean, you got the Pacific, you got wonderful views, you know, you're gonna have the nice sunset. You know, all of that is there. But I think the task of, of a writer, when you're writing about a familiar place, is to try to identify something that that only you kind of experience. You know, like I, I feel like, you know, it's. When I go to, you know, different beaches in California, each one has its own identity. And so, you know, Venice is very different than Malibu, you know. But it also is one of those things where, you know, because I'm writing from my own experience I kind of know those communities in a way. So it's kind of like you know, one of the times I had gone to Malibu I was helping a friend. It was in grad school and he was purchasing a, a couch. And so, you know, it's pitch black up there. I mean, you can't see anything. So we're driving along and, you know, they got these signs that say like, be careful because the, the deer crossing and all, every other kind of animal up there. And so we kept going up and up this hill, right? So we get to this little hidden community and you know, we park and he had a Toyota four runner. So we were able to kind of fit, we were gonna be able to fit the, the couch in there and everything. And so we weren't sure which house. Was the right house. So he called. And so, you know, the person came out, you know, and it's like a pitch Black Street. All you see is like the light go on, right? And I was like, man, this is eerie. And so in the, and there had been like this kind of. Mist kind of fog that had settled up there, you know, and then all of a sudden you kind of see this person come out of the, the house and then comes up and says, oh, you know, you guys here for the couch? You're like, yeah, you know, we're here for the couch. You know, I just want to get outta that. I was like, can we, you know, and most people be like, you know, it's a super safe community. You shouldn't feel that way. And I was like, no. It felt, you know, like as if there was some underlining, you know, kind of danger there. And before I knew it. As we were interacting with the person who was selling us the couch all the other lights on the block started coming on, and then people start coming out and next thing you know, there's people in the middle of the street. And it's just all over this couch, you know? And so then they're, and they're asking, oh, you know, they're having this whole conversation and they're, you know, they say, oh, asking us all these questions, like, oh, where do you guys go to school? And, you know, and I was like, and it is just, it was completely odd, you know, but, and some people would say, well, hey, that's just, you know, very friendly neighborhood. And I think it, it, it very well could be. But for me, coming from a place where, you know, you might talk to one or two neighbors,
David Gwyn:Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark:you know, but you don't, the whole block, you don't know,
David Gwyn:Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark:it was just so interesting. And they were having these full fledged conversations and this was like 10 o'clock at night and you know, and they're, and they're, and they're, you know, they're coming out on robes and stuff.
David Gwyn:Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark:I was like, okay, this. You know, this is interesting. You know, there's something very interesting here where everyone's in everyone's business, you know, and they know everything about each other, you know? But at the same time, it was very eerie a little bit, you know?
David Gwyn:I think that's so interesting the way you're kind of playing with the setting. You know, when people hear Malibu, they don't necessarily jump to that type of experience and that type of feeling. And I think it's really cool that you're, you're kind of playing with that in some ways with your readers. And I think that's super cool. And so I, I kind of wanna talk you, you kind of led us right to this, which is the noir elements of your novels. It's kind of like a hallmark of, of some of the work that you do. Talk a little bit about what you love about kind of infusing noir into the, into the writing that you've done.
Aaron Philip Clark:Yeah, I mean, I love playing, you know, the, the essence of nomar is the, the light in the dark, right? So I love playing with this idea that on the surface, something is pristine, something is beautiful but there's something rotten beneath that. And so you know, Trevor says it in the book, you know, there's no. Such thing as a paradise, there's no place that one could escape to. As long as people are committing homicides, you know, and doing horrible things to each other for whatever the reason may be, there is no place that you could go.
David Gwyn:Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark:because unfortunately this is a, a characteristic of human beings. And so, you know, when I think about Malibu and I, I think of. Of the, you know, the coastline and I think of, you know, the, the beautiful beach, you know, and, and, you know, and the, and the idea of the sunset and the, the, the notion of the sunset having taken, you know, it'll take 10 minutes, you know, beautiful sunset. But for that 10 minutes, you know, you're, you're witnessing all these brilliant colors and it's just like the spectacle. And then after that 10 minutes, it's, it's dark, and it's pitch black and there's nothing out there. And, you know, this idea that anything could happen, you know, to you, I mean, if you're on a trail and you take the wrong turn or you just simply disappear in a canyon there, you know, it's, it's that idea of what darkness falls. You don't know what lingers. And so I just felt like that that's such a noir sort of you know, sort of, sort of place, because it's, and it's under policed, you know, I mean, all they have is, you know, you have the, the sheriff's station but there's not many deputies police in that area because it's this notion that it's low crime,
David Gwyn:Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark:know, so anything could be existing and happening out there that could easily go under the radar of law enforcement Smith.
David Gwyn:Yeah. It's such a writer's mind. I think I just like took a walk through an experienced writer's mind of, of thinking through a setting, right? Like thinking through, you know, why a setting. I think that's the other thing too. I think sometimes. Writers, especially young or or newer writers, they're like, ah, the setting is the setting. Like, I'll just pick here or I'll just pick here. And I think listening to you describe why it had to be set in Malibu is such an important lesson for, for writers to learn that, that there is the perfect setting and there's a reason. There needs to be a reason. Your setting's not a placeholder. Right. I think that's so important that from, from what I'm, I'm getting from listening to you and the last, the last. Thing, larger thing that I, I'd love to talk to you about is your themes. I, I think you know, you write so thematically I'm a, I I think it's incredibly impor important to talk about themes and thrillers. I think. too often we see thriller writers as a genre, generally speaking, who overlook the importance of themes. They're just trying to write something pacey and get it out there and write their one book a year and get it out. And like,
Aaron Philip Clark:Yeah.
David Gwyn:and, you know, I love a fun read, don't get me wrong. Like, I'm fine with something pacey like to just kind of turn through. But I really like when there's substance and I'm I'm trying to do more to highlight some of the important themes that thrillers are taking on. your, your novels are a great example of this. You know, they explore larger themes alongside the kind of crime elements that, that you're, that you're using as plot, as plot elements. So and we've had a chance to talk about this before. So again, for people who are listening, you know, go, go check out those conversations.'cause I, I love listening to your approach. To themes and big ideas in your work. So kind of my, my starting point, general question with all that, that preamble there is just how, how do you approach themes without letting them overshadow suspense? Like, how are you balancing these in, in your story?
Aaron Philip Clark:Yeah, I mean, I, I, my goal is to not write, the didactic novel, right? The idea is that when someone's reading, they don't necessarily want to feel as if someone is lecturing them or, you know, preaching to them. And I think by focusing on the story itself and letting the other elements be very organic as they kind of unfold, you know, it's going to happen naturally. I mean, the, the. The inspiration for this story was, you know, the real life disappearance of Matrice Richardson who she was a, a Covina resident and she disappeared in Malibu and then was ultimately discovered in like this really remote area. And to this day, no one knows
David Gwyn:Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark:what happened to her. And she was supposedly surrounded by marijuana plants that later the sheriff department claimed that. They thought there was a cartel operating in Malibu, had been growing marijuana. But the sheriff was the last person to see her alive.
David Gwyn:Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark:you know, she, they picked her up. She went to a, they believe she was potentially having a mental health crisis, so she drove up to Malibu. And she didn't have any money. So she went to one of the local cafes there and she ordered and she ate. And then when it was time to pay, she clearly didn't have any money. The staff were really torn. They weren't sure if they wanted to call the police or not. They decided, most of the staff decided not to, and were actually thinking about just taking her, seeing if they could take her to the sheriff's station or take her someplace safe.
David Gwyn:Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark:was one staff member who decided to call. And went into the back and made the call. The sheriff shows up, takes her into custody. They drive her to the Calabasas Malibu Sheriff's Station where she's there. And then she is able to make a call to her mother. Her mother said, I, there's no way I can get up to you, you know, from, from Covina. At this time, she, you know, the best thing I, I can do is probably get you in the morning. And from there, we don't know what transpired, but she ultimately was, was let go. And she's seen on camera walking with the sheriff de deputy to that parking lot. And that is the last known image of her. But throughout that night, people had said that they had seen her in backyards and wandering, but no one stopped to, to help. And it's, you know. She disappears, days go by and then she's ultimately discovered. But, you know, they weren't even really looking for her.
David Gwyn:Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark:you know, the sheriff was kind of like, Hey, people come up here all the time and you get runaways and this, that, and the other. You know, and so you know, that's where all a lot of this kind of came from. So those themes are already gonna be packed in because that's really where my head was at when I was writing,
David Gwyn:Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark:know, this idea of, you know, what happened, especially. Very vulnerable populations. I mean, and, and just the things that happen to people of color in general, but especially black women, you know, is, is, is haunting. And when there's no desire to look for the, for them, you know it, it kind of says everything, you know? And so, and it's happening now. I mean, so we, so far, you know. This year, I believe, I want to say it's in Texas. Three black women have been found in a near this kind of ravine in Texas. And their bodies have been found there. And, and they keep saying that, you know, these are natural causes as if someone were swimming there or they're suicides. I mean, some of this is just, you know, there's no desire to dig deeper. And so, you know, I, I think that, since that was the really, the, the, for me was the overarching theme of the novel. It's really the things that happen of just women in general but especially women of color. And the fact that just existing is already putting them in danger when they're in certain areas and having to interact with certain people.
David Gwyn:Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark:and so, you know, that was, that was really at the, at the heart of it, you know, and that the, this idea that you know, these crimes can happen and things can, and people can literally just be disappeared and there may not be a desire there to find them. And there's every reason in the world, you know, we don't have the budget to extend a search that long. Well, you know. They put the person on trial, right? The idea that, well, this person, in, in Ma Theresa's situation, she was a college graduate. but she also worked at this I guess it was a, a exotic dance club LGBT Q, exotic Dance club. And, you know, they were trying to say, well, you know, maybe someone, you know, saw her at this club or did something and, you know, and, and. Who knows. Right? And they, they were trying to spin it so many different ways. Anything to divert from the fact that the sheriff department had the last known contact with her. So, you know, it's, it's, it, I normally start there. I mean, for me to write a novel, I have to really. Find something that I just find so upsetting. You know, I know it's odd to say, but I write from a place of frustration in the beginning, you know? And really when I think about certain types of injustice,
David Gwyn:Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark:really what fuels me. to write a.
David Gwyn:Yeah, no, I love that. And, and, and like I mentioned at, at the outset, I feel like feel like this genre doesn't always. Appreciate some of the like, thematic work that's being done. And I think because it is seen as like an escape, it can be seen as like an an escapist genre where it's like, oh, I'm just gonna read about these people who are going a crazy thing that happened. And like, that's, it's, that's it, it's the end.
Aaron Philip Clark:Hmm.
David Gwyn:I think I find the one, the stories that really stick with me are the ones that have some weight to them. And so what do you think it is like. What do you think it is about these genres that are, that actually are a really good vehicle for exploring themes and social justice and, and these kind of like bigger ideas, why is this genre so good for it? Even if it is maybe underused for, for these big ideas.
Aaron Philip Clark:Because everybody loves a mystery. You know, everybody, you know, even what, what I guess the publishing world will consider literature
David Gwyn:Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark:often has an element of mystery there.
David Gwyn:Mm-hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark:You know, you think about the Goldfinch. Yeah. It's crime, it's mystery there.
David Gwyn:Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark:so I think that that hooks people. And so you, it gives you a level of freedom because you know that it's gonna entertain people because they're thinking so people are having, they, they're actively trying to figure out who did it, what's gonna happen next? How is the protagonist the hero? Going to escape this situation. That's where their head is at.
David Gwyn:Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark:at the same time, you know, that's the, the subtext of what's really going on. Right. What is the overall, you know, overarching theme of the work can easily be there and people have a choice whether or not to, I guess, dig deep into that part of it or just focus on. You know, the more thrilling parts of the book, you know? And I think that that's why it works so well, because readers are gonna have a different interpretation. Some readers will read that and, and really connect to the thematic elements. And then other readers will connect to the fact that at the end of the day, it is a thriller. And they, as long as they felt thrilled, then it's considered a success. You know? But I think that the. You know, the, the most comprehensive reading is to appreciate both and recognize how yes, the thriller is a vehicle to explore much deeper issues. That if you are writing it in a more, you know, literary way or the story revolved around just maybe domestic elements and it had nothing to do with crime, it would feel like a very, very different story.
David Gwyn:Hmm.
Aaron Philip Clark:But I think because you have. A character with a singular focus of getting justice, right? It's easy for people to follow that, and it's easy for people to get behind that because who doesn't want to solve a crime? Who doesn't want to get justice for a victim? You know, it taps into, I think I would say, I don't know if it's safe to say, but almost a universal, if it's such a thing exists, a universal goodness in us where we still. Many of us can still recognize crimes and recognize horrible things and realize, Hmm, that's not good. Someone should do something about that.
David Gwyn:Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark:know?
David Gwyn:Yeah,
Aaron Philip Clark:and so I, I think that it's still enough people out there who have that kind of mindset and are disturbed by the things that happen to other people.
David Gwyn:yeah. No, I love that. I I, I, I think that's so important. And, and like I mentioned kind of as we started this, this conversation around themes, I, I feel like it's something that, like I thriller writers should be thinking about you know, whether, whether you're new to this game or, or you've been around, like you, I think the ones that tend to stay and the ones that tend to find readership are the ones that have something going on, you know, and like you mentioned. You don't, it doesn't have to be heavy handed. It doesn't have to be super overt. It, it just has to have something that sticks with, with readers as we're going. So yeah. So I, I just have a couple quick questions on, on the wrap up here. So just real quick, like what, what are you working on now? What are you working on these days?
Aaron Philip Clark:Yeah. So right now I am working on the fourth Trevor Finnegan novel. And that is the Blues for the Dead. It may be the last one I, I don't know, right. I'm writing it in such a way where it is leading toward probably the last one. But who knows? You know I think Walter Mosley has tried to kill Eazy Rollins off like twice, you know, he's coming back. So I don't know you, who knows how long term it fitting in will go for, but you know, the novel picks up years later after the Bluest night and, trevor's in a different place in his life. So, you know, he and s are married now. He has a, a baby on the way in addition to his, his daughter with Tory. And you know, his agency is, is going somewhat strong. He's still in many ways working the case that is uncovered in the Bluest Knight. It's kind of the aftermath of that case. And so he's still working to get justice and he's kind of become almost a celebrity a little bit. Because of this. So he finds himself on, you know, news programs and Dateline and things like that, you know, talking about, you know, what happened in Malibu in, in the Bluest night. And, and you know, he's working with the FBI and he's kind of this consulted. But he finds himself he, he finds himself at the, at the bullseye of a, of a very powerful young tech, CEO who is a sociopath and this, this kind of tech bro. It starts to toy with Trevor's life in a way that he's never experienced before and really starts to threaten him. Not necessarily with the idea of physical violence, but literally disrupting someone's life so much that they can't function. And threatening his business, and he wants Trevor to do these things for him. Otherwise he's going to, you know, potentially tank his, his PI firm. And so Trevor is, has to contend with that. And as Trevor digs deeper, deeper into this person he realizes that this person may be the worst individual he's ever come across. And Trevor has come across some horrible people, but this. This guy may be the worst and has never, you know faced justice for anything that he's done throughout his entire life. And so, you know, he's been protected. And so this is the, this will be the kind of the first time Trevor sees someone with such a legacy of violence in, in violence in a variety of ways. Not just physical, but just creating harm
David Gwyn:Yeah.
Aaron Philip Clark:it, you know, they can. And so, you know, it, it's, it's, it's, it's gonna be some shockers in it, you know, some beloved characters Might meet their end.
David Gwyn:caught up, right? It sounds
Aaron Philip Clark:People have time to get caught up. For sure. You know? And I encourage people, you know, to, to, to get caught up. and that's the thing with the books though, you know, I, I try to write them in such a way where you could, you can. Start with either book and still, you know, enjoy the story and be fine. But I think to really get the most out of it and to see Trevor's growth as a character, you know, naturally, you know, you would wanna start with number one, you know, under color of law and see where he, where he's able to go. I will say this though. I, I, Trevor will have as close to a happy ending as possible for him, for him and his family.'cause I do not want, you know, he's not gonna die. I take that off the table, you know. He's not gonna die, but you know, he will get, get, things will be taken from him. There will be loss, but at the end of the day, you know, Trevor will, will prevail and, and get his happy ending.
David Gwyn:Nice. That's awesome.
Aaron Philip Clark:I
David Gwyn:yeah, my last question for you is just where can people find you? Where can people look you up?
Aaron Philip Clark:yeah. So my website is Aaron Philip Clark dot com. You can also find me on social media. And that's at real APC books. And that's on Twitter. And Facebook is just Aaron Philip Clark. And then I, my ex account is kind of on hiatus. You know, I, I don't really post there, but I at least kind of update it. But you can find me there at real a PC books as well.
David Gwyn:Yeah. Very cool. Aaron, as always, man, this is, this was great. So much fun to talk to you. I learned a lot as a, as a writer. And, and it, like I mentioned,, these conversations with you, really make me think more deeply about, about the work that you're doing and the books you're writing. So I appreciate you. Thanks for hanging out.
Aaron Philip Clark:The thank you, man. It's always great.
