Developing Better Plots Using a Character-Driven Approach with Daniel David Wallace

Struggling with how to write a thriller that grabs readers immediately? 

In this interview, writing expert Daniel David Wallace shares game-changing writing tips for crafting plots that keep readers hooked from page one. 

Daniel, creator of the Character First Writing Approach and host of Escape the Plot Forest summit, reveals why traditional plotting advice often fails thriller writers.

And he offers three essential strategies for developing compelling, character-driven narratives. 

Whether you're working on your first manuscript or polishing a novel for traditional publishing, these writing techniques will help you avoid the common pitfalls that cause readers to abandon your story. 

Learn how to create protagonists with immediate momentum, maintain emotional connection through plot twists, and structure midpoints that trap both your characters and your readers in the story.

Learn more about Daniel here...

Daniel David Wallace is the host of Escape the Plot Forest, an annual online conference for writers. He spent four years of a PhD researching new ways to help writers tell a great story.
His stories, reviews, and essays have been published in great magazines like Tampa Review, McSweeney's Internet Tendency, Air Schooner, and his writing has won him awards like the Toni Brown scholarship and the Hodges prizes.
Daniel designed a way of teaching plot, the "character-first" approach that aims to return writers to their original love of storytelling (because it teaches you to write according to how your ideal readers will experience your book).
This approach has resonated with so many people: more than 13,000 writers read his newsletter each week.

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Transcript

David Gwyn: 0:00

Daniel, thank you so much for being on the Thriller 1 0 1 Podcast. I wanted to start before we get into this and I, I just kind of mentioned this before we started recording, but I, I wanted people to hear it too.

Daniel David Wallace: 0:09

to hear

David Gwyn: 0:09

I've been attending your summits and been on your newsletter for

Daniel David Wallace: 0:13

for

David Gwyn: 0:14

time. So it is very cool to be here chatting with you.

Daniel David Wallace: 0:17

with you. you so much.

David Gwyn: 0:18

Yeah.

Daniel David Wallace: 0:19

I really appreciate it. And looking forward to, to, to sharing some

David Gwyn: 0:22

Yeah. Yeah. So we're, we're gonna, we're gonna dive right in here. We got a lot to share, which I, I'm really excited about. But first, before we do, I, I'd love to have you just kind of give a quick overview of, of who you are, what you're working on.

Daniel David Wallace: 0:31

Thank you so much. Yeah. Hi everybody. I am a fiction writing teacher. I created a system of writing called the Character First Writing Approach people in a range of different genres and styles and goals to get back to their original love of storytelling to. Try to think through and, and plot the way their readers read. And so the whole process feels hopefully a lot more natural and organic than some of the paths you will take when they try to learn how to be a better storyteller, be a better plotter.

David Gwyn: 1:04

Yeah.

Daniel David Wallace: 1:05

I'm also the host of Escape the Plot Forest an annual summit, which I think we're gonna talk about this event, this, this, this session. Thank you so much. and that's just an amazing event that I started several years ago. Not knowing what it would turn into, and I'm, I'm very grateful that I've built up this community of people who keep coming back and it's been fantastic.

David Gwyn: 1:26

Yeah.

Daniel David Wallace: 1:26

Yeah.

David Gwyn: 1:26

That's awesome.

Daniel David Wallace: 1:27

Yeah.

David Gwyn: 1:27

What a, what a great quick overview

Daniel David Wallace: 1:29

overview

David Gwyn: 1:30

here. So, so let's talk a little bit about Escape the Plot Forest Summit. Tell us the, the dates, times, like the details on that.

Daniel David Wallace: 1:37

Great. So the event starts on the 18th of October, so it's coming

David Gwyn: 1:41

Yeah,

Daniel David Wallace: 1:43

It is five days. It's almost 40 speakers.

David Gwyn: 1:47

I.

Daniel David Wallace: 1:47

And we have our opening happy hours. I teach a three part class during the middle days, which is always a lot of fun. Teach that live. I kind of watch what everyone's talking about, things that seem to be confusing people, then I try to construct some live classes to, to deliver that. It's always a bit of a high wire Sometimes it doesn't completely land. Some my best sessions have come out of that. I did a whole session about eye color that made people very

David Gwyn: 2:13

Oh wow.

Daniel David Wallace: 2:14

I have, of the opinion that eye color can spend, can take up too much time in a story, and we can have less, we can have fewer eye colors unless there's some kind of magical reason why people's eyes are important. The event is totally free if you could show up and attend live. So if you can watch the whole thing with a notepad and a cup of coffee, you can watch the whole thing five days. It's, it's a very substantial craft education, and I try to get all my speakers to speak longer than they often do at events like this. Really, that's my, one of my few secret sources is just to keep asking questions. But the end result is that. Over these five days, you get a really detailed and, and profound education in, in storytelling, in plotting, and, and this year we've got a lot of non-fiction sessions too,

David Gwyn: 3:05

Oh, very cool.

Daniel David Wallace: 3:06

but you can also upgrade to get the paid pass. I didn't invent this model, by the way. It's a well-known way of designing this kind of online event. But you get the replay access, you get a bunch of other bonuses, and I made a little mini course this

David Gwyn: 3:18

Oh, cool.

Daniel David Wallace: 3:19

Start Your Story in the Right Place. And people who sign up for the PayPal get that for

David Gwyn: 3:23

Very cool.

Daniel David Wallace: 3:24

it's a nice little bonus. I think that's, that's, that's, that's the key information. We have a really great and part of the reason why we have a great community is that we have a, a very firmly applied code of conduct, and I feel really lucky that. It was really the attendees that started pointing out to me what I kept talking about. And they'd say, Daniel, you need to write this down. Like this keeps coming up at different events. You're sort of explaining bits of it problems emerge. Let's get it written down. I thought that is a very sensible idea. as with many things in the event, I, I feel like I am a collaborator or maybe even a follower to the people who keep coming back and just trying to make the event, event worthy of them. Hmm.

David Gwyn: 4:10

Yeah, I, I love that. And I, I think too, like for people who are listening,

Daniel David Wallace: 4:13

who are

David Gwyn: 4:13

You know, I, I

Daniel David Wallace: 4:14

I

David Gwyn: 4:15

into the, the, the VIP I've used the replays. I'm somebody who's, who's got a busy, busy life and it's, but it's worth it to me. There's so much great content and, you know, watching live is great, but being able to go back and even like, grab sessions and rewatch'em. Is so helpful. And it, it's, it's so worth it. So any, anyone who's interested, definitely check this out. I, I would recommend the, doing the, the VIP getting the, the replays because. The reality is, you know, it's, it's so much content that it's really hard to consume it all, all at once across five days. And it's a wonderful, like it is something that it, I think it's great that you put it on for free for people who can who can make the time. I think that's just a great way of adding access to, to things. I think. That's wonderful. So thank you for all the work that you do. I, I've done many versions of this. I have a, I have a community that I run and I've done like very small sessions and like, it's like with. With like 15 people. Like, I can't imagine what you're doing with, with as many people as you get to these summits. So it's very cool. And, and I know as, as a writer, I can, I can speak for, for a lot of writers and say like, I do appreciate, really do appreciate the hard work that goes into that.

Daniel David Wallace: 5:18

Thank you

David Gwyn: 5:19

Of course. So,

Daniel David Wallace: 5:19

course.

David Gwyn: 5:20

tell me a little bit about why you think these events are so important for writers to participate in.

Daniel David Wallace: 5:27

Well, I got two reasons, and you know, I don't think they're gonna be particularly unique or surprising things, but I think they're worth saying. The first is, I think that many writers, even the people who come to classes, listen to craft of writing podcasts, go to events. We still have this little voice in our, in our heads that says. You should just be able to do this by yourself. You should just be able to just write. your backside in the chair and just make the stories come out. I think that while that is, is worth listening to that advice, and sometimes you do just have to sit in the chair and, and make the story come out. I, I totally accept that. But that learning the craft learning skills and, and just hearing things afresh is so valuable to writers. You are competing with people who either have been doing this for a really long time. access to great professional editors in their publishing houses, or in some cases were writing since they were very small children. And so by the time they were 18, they had solved a whole bunch of problems that you now as an adult are trying to figure out with your busy life. And it's really okay to say to yourself, I just need to listen to different kinds of plotting advice from different teachers, some of it is gonna hit me in a way that I'm not expecting Suddenly that. Odd element or that thing I keep hearing about will make sense. And in my experience, it's very difficult to predict what that is gonna be. just to be clear, like I listened to most of the event before it happens because I prerecord stuff. Mm-hmm. And it's not like I'm sitting there thinking, oh yeah, here we go again. You know, three act structure, hero's journey. I mean would be a very, a very sad session. Frequently what I'm hearing is like. never thought of it that way. That's a really nice way of putting it. That makes a lot of sense. And when I'm sitting there in the, in the video looking like I'm impressed by the speaker I am, I'm like, oh, that's really clever. so I think that's really important, like just getting the training and it's, it's right there. Five days. You just need to ignore your cat for a bit you know, apologize to your children and you can have a huge amount of craft education in a really small amount of

David Gwyn: 7:41

Yeah.

Daniel David Wallace: 7:42

The second one is that life for many of us conspires to make us feel like our writing isn't that important. If you have, if you already have a huge book deal and this, and the agent is screaming at you to get the next book out, that might be different. But for many of us, we are feeling like we publish a book. It's hard to find people to read it. We're trying. We're trying. We're getting into book to draft three. Is anyone actually out there? It's so powerful to be in a place for basically a week where you are surrounded by people who agree that what you're doing is important they are supportive and actively looking for fellow writers to allies with, to be friends with, to, to, to support each other and to see perhaps, you know, your next mentor at the event. For some people, you know, I hope that'll be me. But there's, it is very possible that you'll see someone at the event that suits you better, that speaks in a way, or is writing the kind of books or advises the kind of writer that you want to be. And that, that's fantastic. I think that's, I think trying to do it all alone with the pressure that the world put us, puts us all under you know, it's

David Gwyn: 8:54

Yeah.

Daniel David Wallace: 8:54

Yeah.

David Gwyn: 8:55

I love that. I, I think it's such an important message for people to hear. And I think you're right, like listening, you know, I always tell people like, if you're here and you're listening to this, like you're doing the good work, but like, this is the next step, right? Like going to a summit, going, going to a conference, doing you know, that type of work is the next step on in, in your writing journey. And if you wanna take this seriously it's just the things that, that kind of come with the territory. You know, it'd be like anything else, right? Anything else you wanna do that you wanna do? Well. You, you have to do it the right way. So let's, let's talk plot a little bit. I, I would love to pick your brain, especially now realizing that you've probably done or listened to a few of these sessions. You probably have even more ideas on plot than you had maybe a month ago or two months ago. So what, what are your, if you could give like three of your favorite tips or tricks for developing plot, what do you think those would be?

Daniel David Wallace: 9:42

That's a great question. the, the, the first thing I, I often teach and I talk to people about, and this is one part of character first writing. And it's, it's part, it's the part that a lot of people remember because it's, it's, it's about the beginning, so it's kind of easy to remember. This part I think that it's, it's really good in a novel to try to get a character doing something really before page one. And I think that, you know, I, for say the thriller adjacent genre, police pro, the police investigating the crime genre. I think that's why you see so many. Stories where it's like the police officers or detective's last case, or they're about to move to a smaller town and have an easier life. And that that's not just character flavor, that's not just a sort of interesting wrinkle put on the character, like saying, this person's in motion. And so as they try and pursue their original goal, or they try to pursue like what they think the story is and the story pressures them to say there's actually something bigger. Here. You are actually being traced, chased by a serial killer. There is actually a conspiracy in the town, in the city hall. The, the heroes resistance to that reality tells the reader that that reality is real. And I find that trying to do instead the story where like. A person just living their life or doing their job and stuff just happens to them. I think that works a lot better in a film where you've got an actor looking really charismatic and smiling and you know, George Clooney's like frying some eggs on it in the kitchen. I watch that. But when it's your book, you don't have George Clooney to, to do the. To do those lines like you, you just got a voice in someone's head. And so I think that's a really good way of, of getting started. Does that make sense? Is that

David Gwyn: 11:47

Yeah, it totally does. And it's funny, I've long suspected that the Save the Cat method, especially for certain genres, I think for certain genres it works better than others. But I think for, for the thriller and thriller adjacent genres. It's really hard to start like slice of life. Like it's, unless your character, their slice of life is inherently dynamic for readers, right? Like you could, you could potentially pull off a police procedural day in the life if they're like, their day in the life is like chasing a somebody down, right? Like that, that works then. But I think day in the life. It, it just doesn't work in every genre. Even though I think Save the Cat is great in a lot of things. I know a lot of people use it. I know a lot of people love it, and, and I use it and I understand it, and I, I, I do adhere to it to a certain degree. But at the same time, like in this genre, like you're mentioning, like it is really hard to grab a reader's attention on page one. If your character's day-to-day life isn't particularly dynamic. Is that kind of what you're saying here?

Daniel David Wallace: 13:29

Yeah, I mean, I think, you know. I love save the cat method too.

David Gwyn: 13:33

Yeah.

Daniel David Wallace: 13:33

it's great. think that like to the character, what's happening on page one should be really important.

David Gwyn: 13:40

Hmm.

Daniel David Wallace: 13:40

Mm-hmm. It might be small, it might be small stakes. It might be, you know, not answered my call about going out on a date. It might be my friend won't come round to gimme that dancing lesson that she promised you would. But I think that it needs to be something that feels real and vivid, that gets the character agonizing about things, hoping for things, maybe even doing something. I think that it, when you start there, I think the misunderstanding people have of everyday life. Is that people think the story begins in like page five when the everyday life part is over. I'm just confident about this. You don't have until page five. Maybe you had it until page five back in the Victorian era, but you definitely don't have until page five

David Gwyn: 14:28

Yeah.

Daniel David Wallace: 14:29

And I, I, I frequently talk to writers and their, their confidence in their reader staggers me when they say things like, well. You know, the story will really kick off from page 15 or, or even like the 25%

David Gwyn: 14:42

Yeah.

Daniel David Wallace: 14:42

just like, that's not how this

David Gwyn: 14:44

Mm-hmm.

Daniel David Wallace: 14:45

Mm-hmm. And when I think of the books I really like, they frequently have a wonderful first page. The character is, even if it is subtle, it doesn't need to, I don't, I'm not, also not a bleak big believer and like a huge fight scene on

David Gwyn: 14:57

Mm-hmm.

Daniel David Wallace: 14:58

Mm-hmm. I think that frequently falls flat, but that. The character is in motion. Something happened to them in page minus one or page minus 10 that we don't get to see, but they are bothered. And, and from there, I think you can start to build. You know, not only can you start to build up an interesting of plot, but it also starts to hint to you about a whole bunch of other things that should be happening later in the story in the middle. Towards the end, and I think you just follow those thoughts to their destination. You get some really interesting points, but that, that's my

David Gwyn: 15:31

Cool.

Daniel David Wallace: 15:32

that's kinda my first idea. Is that

David Gwyn: 15:33

Yeah, that's beautiful. Let's go to.

Daniel David Wallace: 15:34

Let's go to, let's go to number two. What do you got for this? So, I don't know if this is about plotting, but one of the things I see people do a lot is that they will introduce a character, main character early on, and we'll get to see the character doing things. Maybe some of this everyday life stuff that we've talked about. It's already great, but then as the story goes on, it's as if we get more and more distant from that character. It's like the we, we, as soon as you'll like, you'll be reading a manuscript say, and you'll turn the page and they'll just be like, dialogue the whole page. And there are some people that can make that work. I don't know Elmore Leonard who probably do

David Gwyn: 16:11

Hmm.

Daniel David Wallace: 16:12

but I find that in most cases. As the main character's, thoughts and feelings, and even sort of heart to heart conversations with someone else where they reflect on what's happening as that shrinks through the story. The reader starts to feel and further away from what's going on, and at times cannot even understand what is happening. Someone will say something really mean to the protagonist, and then there's just another line of dialogue and the reader is thinking, was that mean? Did I misread that? Because the character doesn't seem to have reacted to it. And I think that many writers get into the kind of zone where they're like, well, of course the character reacted. I felt it. it's hard to sort of re bring us off back and say, try and get, like, every time this character is pushed, startled, I mean pushed like emotionally and physically and anything that happens to the character, that would be like a thing, would be a moment. Let's get like a reaction on the page. And the thing I I, I tell people all the time is if you overdo that stuff in the first draft, anybody. Your your best friend Bob, editor friends of the Writing Workshop. Anybody can read that draft and tell you what to cut? Yeah. You laid it on a bit thick here. Yeah, I got it. I got it after the third, the third par sentence of that introspection. They can tell you how to remove that stuff and trim it down, almost nobody can tell you how to do the reverse if it's just opaque and nobody understands what's happening. Character's going through a bunch of scenes, things are happening. A lot of stuff is going on. Character doesn't seem to be reacting well. They can't tell you what should be on the page because it's not their character. You have to get a really good editor at that point who can like get into the story and on an emotional level, understand story structure. Understands all kinds of things and that they can start filling it in

David Gwyn: 18:06

Mm-hmm.

Daniel David Wallace: 18:07

You should have reacted here. Actually, that was a big deal. Remember that thing on page 20? They would've remembered that. That's hard and hard to find someone like that and it's, often kind of expensive to hire someone to do that for you. So I always tell people like, lay that stuff on thick. Stay close to the character. are not writing, most of us are not writing. British Victorian novels or American Harlem Renaissance novels where there is like a narrator who is guiding us through the story telling us right and wrong, steering us to understand what is we are supposed to be taking from the story. If you're writing that kind of book, this advice is less relevant, I don't know anybody tr very few people are trying to write that kind of

David Gwyn: 18:52

Yeah.

Daniel David Wallace: 18:52

so instead, the only guide we have is our. Small number of main characters. And so I say, let's get that character talking, sharing thoughts, illuminating this story for us, or people just get lost.

David Gwyn: 19:04

Yeah. I love that. I, I,

Daniel David Wallace: 19:06

I,

David Gwyn: 19:06

to bring it back to, to this genre and the, and these, you know, thriller suspense, crime fiction. I feel like a lot of people think

Daniel David Wallace: 19:13

think

David Gwyn: 19:14

a lot about their plot

Daniel David Wallace: 19:15

their

David Gwyn: 19:15

and like, rightfully so. You're kind of, there's some requirements when it comes to plot. You gotta twist, you gotta have twists, you gotta have turns, you gotta have an antagonist. You gotta have all of these things. And I think that that takes up a lot of space. And when we're thinking of thriller writers and who are sitting down and writing and when, I think that a lot of writers that, that I work with, and a lot of writers that I talk to, my, myself included, we get so caught up in the plot that we forget the character of it. So like we are, we're like getting to the next plot point, getting to the next plot point, and our characters end up just like pieces on the board. And, and I think that that's a, a really great point. To make, and I think it does align with plot be for that reason, right? Because like your plot then becomes the whole story, but that's your, your plot's not the story, the character's the story, right? And so I think what, what a, what a really valuable lesson for people to, to hear as they're, as they're listening to this. Very cool. Let's do number three.

Daniel David Wallace: 20:04

Okay. And this one may require the thriller writer to adapt a bit, but something I think a lot about, and this is you know, a another kinda character. First idea is about the midpoint of the story. And I read as I read more novels, but contemporary novels, I feel like the midpoint is becoming like a really important thing. Like I can even remember novels. Doesn't really have a very significant 75% mark despite what all the plotting advice tells you you're supposed to have I can't really remember exactly what happened at the 75% mark, but I can absolutely remember the midpoint, something big happened, some kind of big, big reveal. I think that a lot of writing advice of genre independent writing advice, talks about sort of just like a. A shift may be in the protagonist's interests, like they go from being passive to active or or disengaged to engaged. And I think that kind of advice is good, but I encourage writers to be like. A bit hard on their protagonist. And again, like in a thriller genre, you might have to adjust this a bit, but I like to think about a midpoint as being something like a knot that closes around the protagonist that they can't get out. At this point they are somehow stuck in the story, and that might be in a very character driven story. They go from not wanting to do the thing to wanting to do the thing that that could work. But in other stories there's an amazing novel Jade City fondly where in Jade City th. I, I'm gonna slightly give someone important dies at the halfway point, and everyone else's role is suddenly transformed, but they can't leave now because it's a crisis it's a great midpoint shift. It doesn't, yes. On one level it just sort of shake, shakes things up. But on a deeper level, it forces these characters to now be in the story. They're no longer just watching other people take charge. They now have to decide what to do. And the, the example I love to give,'cause I just think it is so brilliant, This is the midpoint of the fellowship of the Ring by token. And I think that is just such a fantastic example of like what a midpoint can be. And if you, if you, just to recap the book, In the fellowship of the ring Froto is given the ring. He's told he's gotta go on this journey and he decides, well, I dunno where to go, so why not just go and visit Bilbo? My old, my old friend father figure, let's go see Bilbo. He spends the first half of the book trying to get to, to Bilbo on the way he discovers he's being hunted. He's not strong enough to, to fight off these people. They are basically hounding him to death. He survives just by, you know, almost, almost is killed, brought back to life. He and, and by at Aaron's house and he gets to finally see but Bilbo and he realizes that they cannot spend time together because he looks at Bilbo and is disgusted by him. He sees his bilbo's desire for the ring that he now has, and he realizes that he will not let bilbo see or touch the

David Gwyn: 23:21

Hmm.

Daniel David Wallace: 23:22

And so now he's stuck in the story. He cannot let go of the ring. cannot be, he cannot let go of the ring.'cause he's, he's also now obsessed by it. He cannot just be sort of calm and relaxed and chill because he's being haunted by it. And he gotta get away from bilbo somehow. And he, he's not safe because he's being hunted. And so it's not like, you know, I realize if you're doing a thriller where it's just like someone from the outside is, is trying to chase your character down, I understand that might require a bit of adjustment, but I think it's such a great model. So it's saying to the reader, what's this person gonna do

David Gwyn: 23:57

Hmm.

Daniel David Wallace: 23:58

And I think that's a really good way of thinking about the middle of a story.

David Gwyn: 24:01

I, I love that. I love that thought process around kind of a, a shift away from, I think in, in thrillers. And, and to your point, I think a lot of people, when they write thrillers and talking to a lot of thriller writers, they have, they tend to have that opening scene. They tend to have. That 75 to a hundred percent mark, like people tend to feel really good about those sections of their novels. And then it's that midpoint and, and I'm wondering if, if this to some degree is, is adaptable and, and would help a lot of writers in this genre because that's what I see. I see that all the time. I see writers who are like. I know exactly how this is gonna end. I know who the killer is. I know what it's gonna look like. I know, you know, that's 75%. I know, like the climax, the whole thing all the way through. And I know what my opening couple of scenes are and then they get caught in this like where like the stakes don't change for the character. It's just like more things happening. But,

Daniel David Wallace: 24:53

Oh,

David Gwyn: 24:53

but no, no kind of increase intention. And I'm wondering, you know, this, this might work really well in these genres. So Daniel, my, my last question for you is really just around kind of what, what's next for you. So if people are listening to this, hopefully they're listening to it early, they're, they're getting in the summit, they're, they're joining escape the, the plot for us. But beyond that, you know, people are listening to this a little bit later or they want to keep in contact with you. Like, what, what do you got coming up next for you?

Daniel David Wallace: 25:18

am, I love to teach. I come up with this stuff, new stuff all the time. I'm constantly thinking of ways to. Reach the next writer. And on a very practical note, I have the next summit coming up in March, 2026. It's called Perfect Your Process. It's a writing process and lifestyle and Life and Writing Habits event that's coming up in March. And I have a range of, when I'm not doing my summits, I have a range of courses, some for free, some, I have a group coaching program called The Residency that's really popular and so I'm always. Eager to meet new writers and see if the way I teach is useful to

David Gwyn: 26:00

Nice. And so where, where can people find you? Where can people look you up if they're, if they're listening to this and they wanna find you?

Daniel David Wallace: 26:05

wanna find you? The best way is to go to my website, Daniel David wallace.com take a look around, the free call, sign up, and then I'll be in touch with my email list. I email people a lot. I, I, I love to being in touch with people and if you like. The way I talk about writing, I'm doing this all the time, and I'm writing those

David Gwyn: 26:25

Love it.

Daniel David Wallace: 26:25

I would love to stay in touch with

David Gwyn: 26:26

Nice. So yeah, and I, like I said, I'm, I'm a poster child for your email list'cause I've been on there for a while. So appreciate the content you put out. And I'll link, I'll link the website to the description so people can check that out. Daniel, this has been amazing. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat. Of

Daniel David Wallace: 26:42

Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having